Society and Information Technology in Second Life

Wednesdays, August 29 - December 12 , 2007, 4-6, SLT/PT, 7-9 pm ET on Berkman island in Second Life

 Course homepage - http://socinfotech.pbwiki.com

 

 

Instructor: Scott MacLeod (not on Harvard's faculty) = Aphilo Aarde (in Second Life)

http://scottmacleod.com/papers.htm

 

Oct 23 07 Soc and Info Tech class transcript

 

 

 

[16:01]  Boston Hutchinson: Hi Aphilo!

[16:01]  Andromeda Mesmer: Hi Aphilo

[16:02]  You: HI Andromeda

[16:02]  You: Message that my SL app just quit

[16:02]  You: just received such a message

[16:02]  You: Hi Boston

[16:02]  You: We're all in grey.

[16:02]  Boston Hutchinson: Hi Aphilo.

[16:03]  Andromeda Mesmer: Well, you seem to look ok.

[16:03]  Boston Hutchinson: Yes, normal here also.

[16:03]  Andromeda Mesmer: It would be a problem with your clinet then? aphilo?

[16:03]  Boston Hutchinson: You might have to exit and restart

[16:03]  You: ok . . . perhaps at the break, I can log out and in again, and resolve the greyness

[16:04]  Andromeda Mesmer: Well, to us you look fine -- same old t shirt ...

[16:04]  You: What did you think about the trail?

[16:04]  You: tiral

[16:04]  You: trial

[16:04]  Boston Hutchinson: Very interesting.

[16:04]  Andromeda Mesmer: The trial was interesting -- and I was thinkint that next time I should voluteer for jury duty.

[16:04]  Boston Hutchinson: Much more entertaining than trials in RL.

[16:05]  Boston Hutchinson: and it didn't feel as serious

[16:05]  You: it seemd to me that there was not much room in the legal framework there to consider the view from the perpetrator's perspective

[16:05]  You: Do different social systems give rise to different legal contexts?

[16:05]  Andromeda Mesmer: I liked the feature of having wings and horns -- identifies the roles -- and quite funny too.

[16:06]  Boston Hutchinson: though I think Addis was not very happy when Eon said "lock him up and throw away the key."

[16:06]  You: That's one presupposition in the anthropology of law

[16:06]  You: :)

[16:06]  Boston Hutchinson: This is a different social system, for sure.

[16:06]  You: locked into SL . . . that would be quite a fate . . . One of the bases of the anthropology of law

[16:07]  Andromeda Mesmer: Well it is a pecular situation -- what is the definition of art, are not artists by their nature often disruptive, and could this not be considered performance art?

[16:07]  You: emerged from Malinowski's work in the 1920s, that all societies have different legal codes, and they're relative.

[16:07]  Boston Hutchinson: You mean the trial, Andromeda? or the burning?

[16:08]  Andromeda Mesmer: Well, there have also been different ideas of what "rights" are -- the Romans considered that every one had a right to have children.

[16:08]  You: Yes, A, and in the context of a countercultural event, one might ask whether countercultural patterns might have an effect on questions of legality.

[16:08]  Andromeda Mesmer: Heh -- I ws talking about the -- premature -- burning of Burning Man -- as disruptive performance art.

[16:09]  Boston Hutchinson: I don't think burning someone else's artwork is art, though I guess it could be under some circumstances.

[16:09]  You: And there was precedent for individuals burning the Burning Man in unique ways in the early years of the festival.

[16:09]  You: It would have been interesting if Addis had made an even bigger Burning Man nearby, and burnt it when he did . . .

[16:10]  Andromeda Mesmer: I am not really familiar with Burning Man -- but I cold have thought up more arguments.

[16:10]  You: Questions of ownership in a radically individualistic gathering are interesting.

[16:10]  Andromeda Mesmer: How much time was there to prepare the arguments?

[16:10]  Boston Hutchinson: I think it was wrong for Addis to burn the man, but I don't think very much punishment is required. In fact the disapproval of an SL trial is significant punishment.

[16:11]  You: I think they probably had weeks, in the context of the Harvard Law class.

[16:11]  Boston Hutchinson: The arguments seemed fairly well prepared.

[16:11]  Andromeda Mesmer: Yes - the question of ownership is a good one -- but -- the arsonist could say that he ws trying to illustrate the temporary aspect of ownership

[16:11]  You: Might that all be part of the development of Burning Man

[16:11]  You: ?

[16:12]  Boston Hutchinson: Maybe, but it seems like a very radical disruption. Presumably, most attendees would not want that to happen every year.

[16:12]  You: Absolutely, at Burning Man everything is or has been upside down - countercultural . . . at one time or another . . .

[16:12]  Andromeda Mesmer: Geda Hax will be arriving right now :)

[16:12]  You: Rituals as they develop, even only over the span of ten years, do seem

[16:13]  You: often to grow static

[16:13]  Andromeda Mesmer: Well -- artists have to disrupt the Status quo ...

[16:13]  Boston Hutchinson: Yes, but I'm not sure that Addis' actions contributed much to the eveolution of the ritual.

[16:13]  You: And Burning Man as art vs. this individual act of burning the man at Burning Man may be at stake.

[16:14]  Boston Hutchinson: He didn't make much of a case for that, in my opinion.

[16:14]  You: Perhaps, Boston . . . it did extend Burning Man into SL.

[16:14]  Boston Hutchinson: Yes, but did he anticipate that?

[16:14]  You: True . . .

[16:15]  Boston Hutchinson: Of course you could argue that he need not anticipate it to have accomplished it.

[16:15]  You: Probably not . . .

[16:15]  Andromeda Mesmer: Well, he could argue that his act would -- inevitably -- cause a discussion about Life, the Universe and Everything :)

[16:15]  You: Spontaneity is integral to counterculture.

[16:15]  Andromeda Mesmer: He did attract attention.

[16:15]  You: :)

[16:15]  Boston Hutchinson: So maybe he gets credit for creating something in SL, but what did he contribute to Burning Man to justify what he took from them?

[16:15]  Andromeda Mesmer: Sure -- there ya go.

[16:16]  Andromeda Mesmer: ˇhe only aspect I was not too happy with -- was the possibility of danger to the other attendees.

[16:16]  Boston Hutchinson: Well, I hope he doesn't have a real arson trial.

[16:16]  Andromeda Mesmer: Actually -- could be majorly pissed off bout that one -- accidents can happen.

[16:16]  You: If one accept the defense's argument about safety, which seemed spurious to me, he did prevent something.

[16:17]  Andromeda Mesmer: Learning and education are one thing -- dying in the process is something else -- you stop learning when you die.

[16:17]  Diego Ibanez is Online

[16:17]  You: Perhaps he created and added to the numbers of burnings of the man, at Burning Man, with future implications.

[16:18]  Boston Hutchinson: I wonder what the Organizers of BM thought should be done with Addis before the SL trial. Did the trial move them forward in their thinking?

[16:18]  You: Hi Geda!

[16:18]  You: Welcome.

[16:18]  Andromeda Mesmer: The other question I have about the trial is Jury Nullification.

[16:18]  Boston Hutchinson: Hi Geda.

[16:18]  Geda Hax: Hi there

[16:18]  Andromeda Mesmer: Hi, Geda :)

[16:18]  Geda Hax: :)

[16:18]  You: I wonder if he's being tried in Nevada, for one.

[16:18]  Andromeda Mesmer: Good question --

[16:19]  Andromeda Mesmer: In this case, in SL -- is jury nullification possible?

[16:19]  Diego Ibanez is Offline

[16:20]  Diego Ibanez is Online

[16:20]  You: I think due process at a mock trial in SL has to be suspended, for the benefits of learning through experiencing the drama of such an event.

[16:20]  You: As a dramatic learning experience, SL trials offer a rich resource for engaging the trial process directly.

[16:21]  You: ONe that might not be possible otherwise.

[16:21]  Andromeda Mesmer: An argument could be made that the jury was illegitimate, because it should be a jury of his peers, fellow performance artists.

[16:21]  Andromeda Mesmer: Of course -- things have to be simplified here.

[16:21]  Boston Hutchinson: That would have been interesting

[16:21]  Miranda Tibbett is Offline

[16:22]  You: This raises questions of comparison between SL and RL - if the trial was modeled on RL, then jury picking would have come from . . .

[16:22]  Boston Hutchinson: I worry that there will be Pinkerton guards watching the man next year--that would not be what Addis was trying to accomplish

[16:23]  Andromeda Mesmer: The point about a corporation formed for protection and insurance purposes was interesting -- I ws not aware that had been done.

[16:23]  You: Perhaps more RL processes will articulate with this originally countercultural festival over time, just as capital came to play a significant role, - and will it retain its original authenticity in the process?

[16:24]  You: Let's talk more explicitly abt virtual communities.

[16:24]  Andromeda Mesmer: It may not -- maybe some offshoot group willl have a Burning Woman event -- or burning cactus --

[16:25]  You: or brand new forms of gatherings, as Burning Man was at one point.

[16:25]  Andromeda Mesmer: Concerning which -- if you haven't heard -- there may be an influx of newbies tonight, due to a CSI program.

[16:25]  Boston Hutchinson: Good idea. It's hard to imagine a cultural event like this repeating succesfully ad infinitum. What if Woodstock had been repeated?

[16:25]  You: Great . . . which class?

[16:25]  Boston Hutchinson: Maybe it was? But it never really hapeened again.

[16:26]  You: I wonder if one might have endless liminality - betwixt and between-ness - life out of social structure - which Burning Man

[16:26]  Andromeda Mesmer: Class?

[16:26]  You: is an example . . .maybe somehow in cyberspace . . . but perhaps we can talk about that later.

[16:27]  You: So there are lots of myths about what information technologies are doing to society, and

[16:27]  Andromeda Mesmer: If you mean the CSI program -- it is on CBS -- and I suspect the idea was stolen from Charlie Stross' book HALTING STATE

[16:27]  Ericr Infinity is Offline

[16:28]  Annette Paster is Offline

[16:28]  You: these were particularly significant in the 1990s when the Internet became popularized.

[16:28]  Joe Petrel is Online

[16:28]  You: And people didn't know what information technologies were doing, but people had many opinions.

[16:29]  You: By the mid 1990s, the Internet was widely diffused in society.

[16:29]  You: The WWW was commercialized in Dec 1994

[16:29]  Juria Yoshikawa is Online

[16:29]  You: And 1995 was the first year of widespread use of Internet communication.

[16:30]  You: The 1st survey at the end of 1995 said there were 16 millions users world wide (there are 300 million people in the US)

[16:30]  You: By 2000 it was way over 400 million.

[16:30]  You: And now it's way over 1 billion.

[16:31]  You: About 70% of US residents are connected to the Internet

[16:31]  You: That's a huge transformation from small to a mass phenomenon.

[16:32]  Sysku Mayo is Online

[16:32]  You: A UCLA study in the late 1990s found 90 million users on one particular day.

[16:32]  Andromeda Mesmer: How do they count that 70% ? Students in school, or only connections from home? or what?

[16:32]  You: And it's a many to many technology

[16:32]  You: That's what is unique and critical.

[16:33]  You: By contrast, TV is a 1 to many technology

[16:33]  You: as is the radio

[16:33]  You: And the telephone is a one to one technology.

[16:33]  You: The Internet is also Global and Chosen.

[16:34]  You: It's chosen both synchronously and asynchronously.

[16:34]  You: By contrast the fomer east German car called the TRabant was an 'not chosen' technology

[16:35]  SamBivalent Spork is Online

[16:35]  You: It was basically the only one could have, and it was state produced, and could be a requirement for work.

[16:35]  You: When the itnernet started to diffus in the 1990s, it meant, well, the

[16:35]  You: beginning of a new form of people being together.

[16:35]  You: In virtual communities

[16:36]  You: This name is associated with Howard Rheingold

[16:36]  You: who is now teaching courses at Stanford, and author of book by this title.

[16:36]  You: Under this vision, the Internet allowed people to get together in the following ways

[16:36]  You: For free communication

[16:37]  You: where people could build communities

[16:37]  You: and break through the isolation of individual computing

[16:37]  You: and allowed the possible of finding people like them online.

[16:38]  You: There was also a vision of the Internet, that was promoted by the media and others - an oppostiie view

[16:38]  You: which was that people were alienated by the Internet

[16:38]  You: That the "Internet is a world of perverted, lonely people."

[16:39]  You: And so there were a series of studies.

[16:39]  You: And what they found

[16:39]  You: was that people use the internet for personal meaning.

[16:40]  You: On the Internet, these early studies observed that people paly roles with life.

[16:40]  You: A psychoanalyst at MIT - Sherry Turkle, who wrote Life on the Screen - found

[16:40]  Luna Bliss is Offline

[16:41]  You: that people used online technolgoes to chat, to build identieis, and to pretend to be someone else

[16:41]  You: On a widespread technologically mediated basis, this was a new

[16:41]  You: phenomenon

[16:41]  You: For exmaple, one could be 5 different people

[16:42]  You: And Turkle offered an original analysis - of these fake identities.

[16:42]  You: Hello Matrix!

[16:42]  You: This is a clas son Society and Information Technology which you're welcome to attend - http://socinfotech.pbwiki.com

[16:43]  You: Turkle suggested that people used the Internet to escape from lives as they are

[16:43]  You: to express what they want to express

[16:43]  You: And psychoanalysts adore it - a world of cyberspace with no inhibitions

[16:44]  You: There was a New Yorker cartoon in 1995 that captured this view - with 2 dogs on a computer

[16:44]  You: And the caption read "You know the good thing about the computer is that no one knows you're a dog."

[16:45]  You: There were main visions in the mid 1990s - when vritual communities were taking off - partly shaped by the media

[16:45]  You: There was 1 - a 60s / flower power culture online vision

[16:45]  Andromeda Mesmer: That part about pretending to be somebody else is interesting becasue there has been a hot debate among people in wheelchairs -- some wnat to keep them in SL, others decide to abandon them.

[16:46]  You: 2 a vision that folks who used the internet in large numbers were perverted

[16:46]  You: and 3 reflecting Turkle's work - that normal people were living out fantasies

[16:46]  Diego Ibanez is Offline

[16:46]  You: Teh problem with each of these positions is that no one looked at the data.

[16:47]  You: The important thing is - what is actually happening on the Internet

[16:47]  You: - a real view of what's really going on

[16:47]  You: And the media obscured the issue

[16:47]  You: by jumping on the negative side

[16:47]  You: "Bad News Sells"

[16:48]  You: So there were three main profiles - again - in the mid 1990s as the Interent was growing dramatically in popularity

[16:49]  You: That everybody can form virtual communiteis from his or her own experiences online - according to preferences, sociability, solidarity . . .

[16:49]  You: 2

[16:49]  You: that of social deviants, where a prevalent view was that if they're not already, the will become so, due to teh Internet

[16:49]  You: And 3

[16:50]  You: that it was an instrument of role playing

[16:50]  You: This was a little boring

[16:50]  You: What really happens?

[16:50]  Juria Yoshikawa is Offline

[16:50]  You: There are some good sociological studies from that time, from different countries, - US, England, etc.

[16:51]  You: What was happening at the time as a consequence of the Interent?

[16:51]  You: Not much.

[16:51]  You: People were using the WWW to adapt to life

[16:51]  You: They were putting online what they wanted to

[16:52]  You: and were twisitng and adapting to it.

[16:52]  You: Concrete data:

[16:53]  You: Pew Institute for the study of American Life and the Internet has produced study after study since the advent of the popular internet in the mid -1990s

[16:53]  You: In terms of patterns of sociability - one key questions all along

[16:54]  You: (The Pew Cetner has an email list which is worth subscribing to).

[16:54]  You: has been - how much people with with their families, neighbors vis a vis the Internet

[16:55]  You: And what do people do when meeting?

[16:55]  You: Another set of questions had to do with the activities that people did beyond work online.

[16:55]  You: What the Pew Center concluded

[16:56]  You: is that the use of the Internet was either unrelated to social interaction or positively related.

[16:57]  You: So using the early data on the Internet showed that the Internet was postively associated with sociability.

[16:57]  You: To see it in comparative analysis:

[16:57]  You: They compared Internet and non-Internet users in terms of social behavior

[16:58]  SamBivalent Spork is Offline

[16:58]  You: And, again, what they found was that Internet use and telecommunications - phones, for example - reinforce each other.

[16:58]  You: That there was relation whatsoever to actual changes in patterns of sociability

[16:58]  You: Good, but boring . . .

[16:58]  Joe Petrel is Offline

[16:59]  You: So they stareted to build on these studies.

[16:59]  You: They looked at all use at different times ot he day, and those who have the Internet compared with those who don't

[17:00]  You: And, for example, those who had fewer friends still had fewer friends, and those who had more friends, still had more friends.

[17:00]  Sysku Mayo is Offline

[17:01]  You: The >only< positively reltaed correlation that they found was that when you have Internet access, you spend more time on e-mail,

[17:01]  You: but no other differences in sociability.

[17:01]  You: Another interesting question they asked was

[17:02]  You: What happens when one drops Internet access?

[17:02]  You: And the correlation that they found was that if poeple fropped Internet acces, they cooked much less :)

[17:03]  Andromeda Mesmer: I would have expected the opposute!!!

[17:03]  Nauka Umaga: Shocking! :)

[17:03]  You: Because it meant people went outside more, - cooking is an ntegrated activity in a home cetnered life.

[17:04]  Boston Hutchinson: Fewer recipes?

[17:04]  You: Go outside and you drop come-centeredness, hence the cooking finding.

[17:04]  Andromeda Mesmer: Ah, I see.

[17:04]  Andromeda Mesmer: OK. Makes sense.

[17:04]  You: Perhaps . . .don't know that data

[17:04]  You: So the relationship to the Internet is being patterned around life.

[17:04]  You: And this is completely different from the media view, which said the Internet eats you up.

[17:05]  You: Instead, the Internet conforms to life style

[17:05]  You: And this summarizes a whoe body of literature.

[17:05]  You: Let's pause here for a break

[17:06]  You: And we can chat a little in about 5 minutes, if you have questions, and also carry on . . .

[17:06]  Andromeda Mesmer: I'm going to relog.

[17:06]  Whitelight Christiansen is Online

[17:06]  Jagger Valeeva is Offline

[17:06]  Geda Hax: Yep , me too

[17:06]  Geda Hax: brb

[17:06]  You: Me too, as I 'm still seeing grey.

[17:06]  You: brb

[17:06]  Nauka Umaga: Hey there Geda :)

 

[17:12]  Andromeda Mesmer is Online

[17:12]  Teresa Cinquetti is Online

[17:12]  Daisyblue Hefferman is Online

[17:12]  Whitelight Christiansen is Online

[17:12]  Gwyneth Llewelyn is Online

[17:12]  Boston Hutchinson is Online

[17:12]  Barbie Starr is Online

[17:12]  Sarasvati Kohime is Online

[17:12]  Shava Suntzu is Online

[17:12]  Jon Seattle is Online

[17:12]  Champler Snook is Online

[17:12]  Nauka Umaga: Aphilo's back

[17:12]  Rain Ninetails: Andromeda told me about it first!

[17:12]  Rain Ninetails: I applogize for being late, Aphilo.

[17:13]  You: Nice to see you.

[17:13]  Andromeda Mesmer: I dragged some French newbies to Free Dove one time -- used Babbler to communicate with them about it.

[17:13]  Rain Ninetails: u2 *smiling*

[17:13]  You: Now you are all in color . . . nice . .

[17:13]  You: great A, thanks . . curious to see how this is translated.

[17:14]  Andromeda Mesmer: Aphilo Aarde -- relogging and clearing cache is the recipe for all kinds of fixes.

[17:14]  Champler Snook is Offline

[17:14]  You: So, more about empirical data on the sociability and the Internet, as the Internet becoming dramatically popular in the 1990s.

[17:15]  You: In 2000, in a survey at UCLA of a representative sample in the US -

[17:15]  You: They examined directly the hypothesis that Internet destroys family life, by asking . . .

[17:16]  You: whether Internet users read more literature, go to more movies, read more books, play more sports, watch more sports, than non-Internet users.

[17:16]  You: The only thing they found was that Internet users watch a little less TV

[17:17]  You: The UCLA study compared their results with data from previous yeras

[17:18]  Bruce Flyer is Online

[17:18]  You: corrections - The UCLA study asked its sample to compare their responses with prevous years's experience

[17:18]  You: And 75% of the repsondents declared that Internet activity had not impacted sociability, i.e. they didn't suffer socially.

[17:19]  You: This UCLA study also found that e-mail improved family ties.

[17:19]  Jon Seattle is Offline

[17:19]  You: 2 other studies confirmedt this.

[17:19]  You: So something like 110 studies in the later 1990s says one thing, and 2 studies say another

[17:19]  Andromeda Mesmer: Pictures of grandchildren -- a very popular attachment that gets sent around ...

[17:20]  You: (I bet). Barry Wellman, at the Univ. of Toronto, has studied

[17:20]  You: networks for much of his recent career.

[17:21]  You: Though the National Geographic web stie - a very popular one in the late 90s - he got N.G. to coopearte in posting a

[17:21]  You: survery and users to answer a questionnaire

[17:21]  You: online and offline

[17:21]  You: And 40000 users in North America replied

[17:21]  You: He asked how the use of e-mail and hte web related to friends, family and social interaction.

[17:22]  You: Findings - the Use of e-mail added to letter and phone communications, and was not a substitute for.

[17:22]  You: Overall, the Internet and email led to more social interaction, not less.

[17:23]  You: In another study,

[17:23]  Geda Hax is Online

[17:23]  You: Barry Wellman did a very interesting study called "Netville"

[17:24]  You: And a Univ of Pennsylvania reseracher has jsut published a Netville 2 study

[17:24]  You: AIR-L is a very interesting email list of Internet researchers for those interested

[17:24]  You: Sign up for the Assoc of Internet Researchers email list if interested.

[17:25]  You: Barry Wellman, for example, posts here, too.

[17:25]  Bruce Flyer: i hope their annual meeting is virtual

[17:25]  You: In Wellman's Netville study - he looked at a suburb of Toronto

[17:25]  You: (Not exclusively, bruce :)

[17:26]  Bruce Flyer: i guess hotels need the revenue

[17:26]  You: At the time, Netville was the most wired suburb (1998).

[17:26]  You: A developer and and ISP (Internet Service Provider) company

[17:27]  You: with Wellman wired Netville as an experimental place wehre lower-middle class residents were offered free access to fast Internet

[17:27]  You: with a new method of access, for the time - constant access.

[17:27]  You: At the time dial up was still common.

[17:27]  You: The residents were offered two years of free service

[17:27]  You: 65% accepted.

[17:28]  You: in exchange for being human subjects

[17:28]  You: They were studied for 2 years comparing what happened in social life, with fast acces vs. those with no access.

[17:29]  You: And what Wellman found was theat there were a higher number of strong ties between people, as well as a higher number of weak ties, plus a higher number of neighbor ties.

[17:30]  You: So internet ues here correlated positively with intensity of social action

[17:30]  You: both proximally and distally

[17:30]  Patrio Graysmark is Online

[17:30]  You: Internet users became more aware of local news

[17:30]  Bruce Flyer: the computer probably leads to less time watching TV

[17:30]  Whitelight Christiansen is Offline

[17:31]  You: and aware of local politics, as well as global politics.

[17:31]  You: Yes, Bruce.

[17:31]  Andromeda Mesmer: Make that a DEFINITE , Bruce.

[17:32]  You: So the Netville experiment showed that access and use of Internet led to positive correlations with sociability and news use.

[17:32]  Bruce Flyer: it would be interesting to know how Myers Briggs types map to online social activity

[17:32]  You: And then there were 2 studies were conveyed bad news.

[17:32]  You: One was by Nie and Erbring at Stanford in 2000

[17:33]  You: Nie works at the Cneter for Quantitative Study of Society.

[17:33]  You: In 2000, they studies 4000 people who were asked about Internet-use and sociability online

[17:33]  You: This survey was quoted around the world in the press.

[17:34]  You: And for the large majority, users said the Internet made no change in their life.

[17:35]  You: For a minority (abt 20%), who were heavy Internet users, a significant proportion of them - 2/3 of 20% - reported feelings of loneliness and alienation.

[17:35]  You: They rated high on an alienation index.

[17:35]  Nauka Umaga: Any addiction is isolating, not just the internet addiction.

[17:35]  You: That's one small fraction of heavy internet use.

[17:35]  You: Can be, -true

[17:35]  Shava Suntzu is Offline

[17:35]  You: In a second study,

[17:36]  You: Bob Kraut at CMU - Carnegie Mellon University in Pittsburgh

[17:36]  Valentine Munson is Online

[17:36]  You: designed a limited, well-designed study betw 95 and 97

[17:36]  You: He looked at 169 households.

[17:37]  You: With a group of psychologists, he gave households without a computer a new computer, and studied what happened.

[17:38]  You: After two years, they were given an alientaion and isolation test, - he collected data before and after

[17:38]  You: And a high proportion of people developed depression and loneliness.

[17:38]  You: With 100 questions, one can measure whatever one wants.

[17:39]  Diego Ibanez is Online

[17:39]  You: And loneliness is easy to measure - both the feelling adn the proportions of personal interactions, in terms of frequency and intensity.

[17:40]  You: No one has questioned the professional quality of this study

[17:40]  You: And it's a standard of good work.

[17:40]  You: so what?

[17:40]  Morrhys Graysmark is Online

[17:40]  Boston Hutchinson: It seems to me that many of these studies had non-representative sample populations

[17:40]  You: A lot of effects aren't seen, because the internet was so new.

[17:40]  Boston Hutchinson: e.g. starting with housholds without a computer

[17:41]  Boston Hutchinson: or with those who chose to connect v. those who chose not to

[17:41]  You: Yes, Boston, you have to take these studies in the aggregate - and some have representative samples

[17:41]  You: but as I said 110 say one thing and 2 say another - I'm characterizing the two, and will show some of their limitations, as well.

[17:42]  Bruce Flyer: a study should really be over time and measure something "before and after"

[17:42]  You: With Kraut's study,

[17:42]  Bruce Flyer: it may be that people who are already isolated or depressed stay that way when they get a new computer

[17:42]  You: . . . as a majority of reserachers know, the 1 moment of 1st use is very frustrating

[17:42]  You: Yes, Bruce, but Kraut did measure this

[17:43]  Andromeda Mesmer: One VERY important question is who funded these two studies showing negative effects -- since there have been articles in medical journals that have been warped by the fact that big pharma companies funded them.

[17:43]  You: And for many, even the year is frustrating

[17:43]  Bruce Flyer: why would the pharma companies dislike internet use?

[17:43]  Geda Hax: good point

[17:44]  Nauka Umaga: Yes, did the NSF or NIH fund the studies, or someone else?

[17:44]  Andromeda Mesmer: Sorry -- I am not clear -- the articles were about the amazing efficacy of some new drug, produced by the big pharma companies - that turned out later to have unfortunate side effects.

[17:44]  You: Yes, A - these studies are not funded by corporate money, but they are flawed (I don't know how they were funded).

[17:44]  Attack Chopper: say /help in chat for a note card

[17:44]  Geda Hax: pharma companies surveys regarding medical matters not internet ones

[17:44]  Andromeda Mesmer: So -- I'd like to know who funded these two studies, and what their biases might be toward the internet.

[17:45]  Joe Petrel is Online

[17:45]  Andromeda Mesmer: For example -- suppose a TV network funded this -- they may have a interest in seeing their viewer number stay up? And not go spendig time on the internet?

[17:45]  You: So systematic studes show taht first use can be very frustrating

[17:45]  Andromeda Mesmer: Just asking.

[17:45]  You: And the hypothesis here is that familiarty with a medium is essential.

[17:46]  You: What Kraut's study of 169 households didn't take account of, in waht was otherwise a very well-designed study - was first use.

[17:47]  Nauka Umaga: Imagine studying SL by looking at 1st day newbies! XD

[17:47]  Bruce Flyer: it would be difficult to get a random sample of SL users

[17:47]  You: And the main frustration that people may have been reporting here, was being pushed into a medium they did not control,

[17:47]  You: And this is why the results are flawed - because they don't control for this variable.

[17:47]  You: So

[17:48]  Bruce Flyer: has anyone done interview research in SL as an avatar?

[17:48]  Boston Hutchinson: Good question!

[17:48]  You: Pew studies in 95, 96, 97, 98, 99 and 2000

[17:49]  You: Yes, there's one anthropologist who went to Stanford and now teaches at

[17:49]  You: UC Irvine or Davis, I think.

[17:49]  You: Hold on

[17:49]  Bruce Flyer: i once thought i understood anthropology

[17:50]  You: http://chronicle.com/wiredcampus/article/2287/anthropologist-deep-bonds-forged-in-second-life

[17:50]  Nauka Umaga: Bruce - a Polish doctoral candidate is doing a socio survey, but it's in Polish, or I'd send it to you

[17:50]  You: That's a podcast, where he lays out some of his observations.

[17:50]  You: Thanks Nauka

[17:50]  Bruce Flyer: thank you for the offer, Nauka

[17:51]  You: Other research and researchers that people know of?

[17:51]  Bruce Flyer: i don't know anyone who could translate for me

[17:51]  Nauka Umaga: Bruce - I could, I speak Polish, but the survery is specifically for Poles, they want to study Polish SL users.

[17:51]  Andromeda Mesmer: Maybe there is a brief summary at the beginning of the article.

[17:51]  Boston Hutchinson: Isn't there an on-line translation for Polish? That would get a rough translation...

[17:52]  Bruce Flyer: where does one go in SL to interview Poles?

[17:52]  You: This is the most interesting and rigorous academic blog on virtual worlds, that I know of:

[17:52]  You: http://terranova.blogs.com/

[17:52]  Andromeda Mesmer: The problem with any study of SL residents is that SL keeps changing. Findings right now may not be applicable 5 years from now.

[17:52]  Bruce Flyer: i teach research methods, so I am thinking about the technical issues of sampling strategy

[17:52]  Annette Paster is Online

[17:52]  You: I tried to find a Greek translator the other day - to no avail.

[17:52]  Nauka Umaga: Bruce - Centrum POLSKA is a Polish area, you'll find Poles there

[17:52]  Andromeda Mesmer: There is a translators group in SL.

[17:53]  Andromeda Mesmer: Some will translate for free, others for pay.

[17:53]  You: Yes, reflecting all of social science research,

[17:53]  You: Great . .

[17:53]  You: human action is dynamic, which makes for rich and interesting challenges in research

[17:54]  You: Many of the studies I've mentioned this evening are successful vis-a-vis a related medium - cyberspace.

[17:54]  Bruce Flyer: thank you, Nauka

[17:54]  You: Thanks, Nauka

[17:54]  Nauka Umaga: Sociological studies that may be out of date or no longer applicable would still be intersting, would show how the technology and its use change and evolve, and which shapes the other over time.

[17:55]  Andromeda Mesmer: Good point.

[17:55]  Geda Hax nods

[17:55]  You: Clearly, and the studies above, also all chart empirically teh beginning of a remarkable new set of information technologies.

[17:56]  You: So, to wind up

[17:56]  Boston Hutchinson: http://babelfish.altavista.com/

[17:56]  Boston Hutchinson: They claim to do Greek to English, but not Polish

[17:56]  Bruce Flyer: Geek to English?

[17:56]  Andromeda Mesmer: LOL

[17:57]  You: And the Pew Center was very prescient in starting reserach immediately after the Internet got popular. So, after 6 years of studies from 95 - 200

[17:57]  Boston Hutchinson: That is sometimes more difficult. :)

[17:57]  Lucius Rieko: /ls off

[17:57]  Nauka Umaga: Polish <-> English : http://www.translation-guide.com/free_online_translators.php?from=English&to=Polish

[17:57]  You: Thanks Boston

[17:58]  Lucius Rieko: Greeting humans!

[17:58]  Bruce Flyer: welcome Lucius

[17:58]  Lucius Rieko: /ls on

[17:58]  You: So, in 2000 users reported greater overload, greater satisfaction and more control with the Internet (as it was re-tooled in these years).

[17:58]  You: Hello Lucius!

[17:59]  Bruce Flyer: can we survey you Lucius?

[17:59]  Nauka Umaga: Lucius - we are listening to a lecture, please sit and join us

[17:59]  Lucius Rieko: Hello

[17:59]  Nauka Umaga: Lucius - those sounds are distracting, please stop

[17:59]  Andromeda Mesmer: Might be best to mute him .

[17:59]  You: So I will post this transcript to the wiki

[17:59]  Andromeda Mesmer: I just did.

[17:59]  Lucius Rieko: Sorry ladys and gentlemen

[17:59]  You: We're closing anyway.

[17:59]  Bruce Flyer: thank you Aphilo

[18:00]  Bruce Flyer: next Thurday here?

[18:00]  Nauka Umaga: Andromeda - thanks for posting that :)

[18:00]  Geda Hax: well we talked about 2 negative results versus 110 positive ones , well I think one of them could be explained by the nature of one of them ..households , this is not a prejudice but if you stayed at whole the whole day while your partner is working and kids at school , you wouldnt need internet to feel depressed and lonely , would you ?

[18:00]  You: This is a clas son Society and Information Technology which you're welcome to attend - http://socinfotech.pbwiki.com

[18:00]  Nauka Umaga: Aphilo - thanks for the lecture, I SO needed a break to improve my mind and not do tech support for a while

[18:00]  Geda Hax: * at home the whole day ..sorry

[18:01]  Geda Hax: Yes Aphilo thanks

[18:01]  Nauka Umaga: Geda - depends. I know I would, and many homemakers, women and men, feel very isolated and lonely. Some like it though, and I think they network and socialize much more than the ones who are sad.

[18:01]  Andromeda Mesmer: I enjoy this class very much Aphilo -- just sorry that I fell down on the job of reminding people to come -- got busy wth several things.

[18:02]  Bruce Flyer: two of us were 24 hours early!

[18:02]  Nauka Umaga: I was late because I had some stuff that came up and had to be done. Andromeda is really good about reminders though.

[18:02]  You: Yes, perhaps . . . in trying to exlore whether the Internet was alienating just as it was beocming popular, a focus on households may not have been representative

[18:02]  You decline RW_welkom from A group member named Jenn Hienrichs.

[18:02]  Andromeda Mesmer: SL has been reported to be great for retirees, and the disabled, who can't get out much -- perhaps they put more effort into learning to use SL -- and so they get more out of it.

[18:02]  Geda Hax: well thats what I think , some may like it but the majority hmm dont know

[18:02]  You: Thanks for coming - we'll meet again next Wednesday (not Thursday) as usual

[18:02]  Bruce Flyer: good night everyone

[18:03]  Andromeda Mesmer: 10% retention rate in SL --

[18:03]  Nauka Umaga: g'night Bruce :) I have met a few folks who have told me they are ill [more]

[18:03]  Boston Hutchinson: Nice to see you, Bruce

[18:03]  Andromeda Mesmer: 20% if people get help in adapting and learning about SL.

[18:03]  Bruce Flyer is Offline

[18:03]  Andromeda Mesmer: Bye Bruce ..

[18:03]  You: Yes, A, SL offers all kinds of novel possibilities

[18:03]  You: Bye Bruce

[18:03]  Nauka Umaga: very ill IRL, so they come to SL to escape. For them, it is therapeutic. They cannot get out of the house, but in SL, they meet real people and become friends, even significant others. And here, they are not constantly reminded of their illness.

[18:03]  You: Language learning

[18:04]  You: The ability to create novel topographies and structures as models

[18:04]  You: the death of distance in conjunction with a kind of representational realism

[18:04]  Andromeda Mesmer: I knew of an unfortunate woman who had chemotheraphy, and looked really awful she said -- but she liked looking ok in SL.

[18:05]  Nauka Umaga: Yes. Having nice appearance helps cancer patients IRL, so I'm sure having pretty avatars in SL helps too.

[18:05]  You: Perhaps reflecting Sherry Turkle's research findings - "life on the Screen," A

[18:05]  Diego Ibanez is Offline

[18:05]  You: Where we can invent ourselves in Cyberspace, and even more so in SL

[18:06]  Geda Hax: besides that which is very important , the culture exchange is great by all meanings not only interacting with people but by seeing their work around and experiencing things it would take you a life time to learn

[18:06]  You: Boston and I have interests in Croquet . . .another virtual world

[18:06]  Andromeda Mesmer: And you can also play as being an actor in your favourite TV program -- like Star Trek -- associate with people who like that program too -- great fun -- and other role playing.

[18:06]  You: Has anyone used Croquet?

[18:06]  You: Exactly.

[18:06]  Diego Ibanez is Online

[18:06]  Andromeda Mesmer: No -- first I have heard of it.

[18:06]  Nauka Umaga: No, haven't heard of SL Croquet, just RL Croquet.

[18:06]  Boston Hutchinson: It's still difficult to use

[18:06]  Geda Hax: never heard

[18:06]  Nauka Umaga: the game, I mean

[18:06]  Nauka Umaga: I have to go eat dinner in RL.

[18:06]  Nauka Umaga: Thanks for the lecture and discussion, Aphilo and fellow audience members.

[18:06]  Nauka Umaga: bye bye!

[18:07]  Boston Hutchinson: Very powerful system, but I think you have to be an expert to get started

[18:07]  You: It may become a server-less, very collaborative 3-d virtual world, as it becomes easier to use

[18:07]  Andromeda Mesmer: ıye, Nauka

[18:07]  You: You're welcome

[18:07]  Geda Hax: bye bte Nauka

[18:07]  You: Bye Nauka

[18:07]  Geda Hax: *bye

[18:07]  Geda Hax: well I also have to go , thanksa lot guys , as always its a pleasure

[18:07]  Geda Hax: see you next wed

[18:07]  Andromeda Mesmer: Server-less -- very interesting possibilities there then.

[18:07]  You: Let's continue next week, and we'll talk more about virtual worlds

[18:07]  You: Nice to see you Geda, A

[18:08]  You: Rain, Matrix

[18:08]  Boston Hutchinson: Construction seems easier in Croquet than in SL

[18:08]  Rain Ninetails: ty!

[18:08]  You: Boston

[18:08]  Andromeda Mesmer: If anybody is

[18:08]  You: TY!

[18:08]  Boston Hutchinson: But getting it to run networked is harder

[18:08]  Patrio Graysmark is Offline

[18:08]  You: for now.

[18:08]  Andromeda Mesmer: Who is using Croquet now?

[18:08]  Andromeda Mesmer: How many residents

[18:08]  Rain Ninetails: I met some one in a paint ball tounament.

[18:09]  Rain Ninetails: or group

[18:09]  You: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croquet_project

[18:09]  Boston Hutchinson: It's not a world with residents. More of a world-building tool

[18:09]  Boston Hutchinson: there are some worlds, but just developers using them i think

[18:10]  Boston Hutchinson: you can build your own world and run it yourself

[18:10]  You: Will it eventually have residents?

[18:10]  Boston Hutchinson: I think there will eventually be multiple worlds with residents

[18:11]  Boston Hutchinson: there are some now, but I haven't been able to connect.

[18:11]  Boston Hutchinson: It's under development

[18:11]  You: ok

[18:11]  Andromeda Mesmer: I have been reading Charlie Stross' book HALTING STATE, and he talks about multiple worlds there -- quite ainteresting novel --

[18:11]  You: At some point, perhaps we could talk more about it in class, and even do a demonstration.

[18:12]  Geda Hax is Offline

[18:12]  Andromeda Mesmer: That would be very interesting to see --

[18:12]  You: I havne't read it, A

[18:12]  You: I'll look at it.

[18:12]  Boston Hutchinson: Nor I.

[18:12]  Boston Hutchinson: You can downloat Croquet and enter a world. then you can add one or more of your own. all in a few minutes

[18:12]  Andromeda Mesmer: It has just come out recently -- starts off with a burglary in a virtual world bank -- but this virtual bank assets are insured by the RL Bank of Scotland -- so it gets complicated and messy.

[18:13]  Boston Hutchinson: sounds interesting

[18:13]  You: sounds very RL :)

[18:13]  You: and when the two articuate

[18:13]  Boston Hutchinson: Anyway, in Croquet, you can add worlds (islands) easily.

[18:13]  Andromeda Mesmer: It actually takes place only a few years in the future. Scotland is independent -- technologically adanced.

[18:14]  You: why would people want to build islands in Croquet, Boston?

[18:14]  Boston Hutchinson: But at the moment, it's difficult to connect over the net. You need to be anexpert to do that.

[18:14]  Boston Hutchinson: it's free

[18:15]  You: I can imagine it to be potentially an art

[18:15]  Boston Hutchinson: and you don't have the same features and constraints as in othere worlds, like SL

[18:15]  Andromeda Mesmer: The two other worlds that I know about -- Entropia in Europe -- is supposed to be photo realistic -- but the complaint is, there is nothing to do

[18:15]  Andromeda Mesmer: The Chinese have Hipihi --

[18:15]  You: for example

[18:16]  Geda Hax is Online

[18:16]  You: http://www.virtualworldsreview.com/

[18:16]  Boston Hutchinson: Croquet, according to the developers, is actually an operating system, but in 3D

[18:16]  You: I shared this two weeks ago

[18:16]  Boston Hutchinson: and its a totally P2P Internet

[18:16]  Boston Hutchinson: It may replcae the WWW

[18:17]  You: it's potential is great

[18:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn is Offline

[18:17]  Andromeda Mesmer: One of the thngs that the anarchist types in SL dislike is the power of the land barons. They are very interested in a decentralized system, shared on computers.

[18:17]  Boston Hutchinson: It has limited financial support.

[18:17]  Andromeda Mesmer: I'll bet!

[18:17]  You: and open source people

[18:17]  Boston Hutchinson: There is a company, Qwaq, that's funded

[18:18]  Andromeda Mesmer: But maybe it cold become like Linux??

[18:18]  Boston Hutchinson: there are groups at several universitis

[18:18]  You: the free aspects of the internet have led to great innovatio

[18:18]  Andromeda Mesmer: What you said several weeks ago Aphilo ...

[18:18]  Boston Hutchinson: Yes, it's a lot like Linux in that it's free, but compatible with corporate use

[18:19]  Andromeda Mesmer: It would be possible to have casinos on it then? And not subject to bans by the US govt.?

[18:19]  Andromeda Mesmer: Not that I am a fan of casinos ...

[18:19]  Boston Hutchinson: You can download and try Croquet, but it's hard to connect to other users. That will eventually change

[18:19]  You: Here's one of the leaders of open source at a debate at yale

[18:20]  Boston Hutchinson: I guess laws would be hard to enforce in a private P2P world

[18:20]  You: the argument for the publicgood over private interests is compelling - at least at the yale debating society

[18:20]  You: You might enjoy this recent article about Richard Stallman and DRM: http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/10/20/2322202

[18:21]  You: very, Boston, at the moment

[18:21]  You: but what's develiping here in SL may impact Croquet at a later date

[18:22]  You: join the metaversed group here in SL

[18:22]  You: for some interesting discussions on, for example, taxation of digital worlds

[18:23]  You: and Jochai Benkler's "Wealth of Networks"

[18:24]  You: makes an argument for non-market information production, a new development with the Internet

[18:24]  You: He's now at Harvard, and very far-reaching

[18:25]  You: in his arguments

[18:25]  Boston Hutchinson: Croquet needs, and will get, some boosts from the market, but hopefully not so much that it becomes controlled by a corporate monopoly.

[18:26]  Andromeda Mesmer: I occasionally wonder if the people running Linden Labs will sell out to, say Microsoft ...

[18:26]  You: the market is important, but widespread hacker interest leads to tremendous innovation

[18:26]  Rain Ninetails: /fear

[18:27]  Andromeda Mesmer: Yay Hackers!

[18:27]  Boston Hutchinson: I think they will eventually be forced to make money

[18:27]  You: zuckerberg of facebook is talking w google and microsoft about a potential deal.

[18:27]  Boston Hutchinson: They have to have investors, and the requirements of the capital markets are self-enforcing

[18:28]  Boston Hutchinson: Even if you don't "sell-out", you are constrained by the need to raise capital and/or make a profit

[18:28]  Andromeda Mesmer: For what it's worth -- Linux is very popular in South America, and many governments there like it as an alternative to Microsoft.

[18:28]  Andromeda Mesmer: So maybe they will like alternatives to SL too.

[18:28]  You: I agree, but e-mail is still basically free,and the most used app on the internet and it hasn't directly engaged the market

[18:29]  Boston Hutchinson: That eventually leads (if you go public) to a responsibility to investors

[18:29]  You: Yes .. .

[18:29]  Boston Hutchinson: True. email is not owned by a monopoly

[18:29]  You: e-mail may be a kind of loss leader, too . . .

[18:30]  Boston Hutchinson: SL has a virtual monopoly on SL-like worlds with lots of avatars in them.

[18:30]  You: And look at wikipedia

[18:30]  You: Sl is the most sophisticated of the virtual worlds, but it's also fee for now

[18:30]  Boston Hutchinson: for now

[18:31]  Boston Hutchinson: but it has to be supported by something

[18:31]  Andromeda Mesmer: SL or Linden Labs, more precisely -- handles the education of new people very very badly. It is left up to volunters and irregular helpers like me.

[18:31]  You: Apple Computer had free email for years - .mac - then charged.

[18:31]  Diego Ibanez is Offline

[18:31]  Boston Hutchinson: it has to pay, not just for all the developers, but for all the server farms burning electricity

[18:31]  You: It raised a anger

[18:31]  Andromeda Mesmer: Another thing Linden does badly is tech support -- Nauka said her premium account is useless, and she will NOT renew. She gets more help out of the groups.

[18:32]  Andromeda Mesmer: Nauka is a scripter at NCI.

[18:32]  You: it also may be the way virtual worlds go . . . but I doubt it

[18:32]  You: Getting more people in world is a huge issue, if any economic processes already here are to grow.

[18:33]  You: SL uses a land-for-sale business model

[18:33]  Boston Hutchinson: From the user's POV, if it's free it's fine, but from the POV of control of resources, need for capital, and future development trends, the money tends to control development.

[18:33]  Andromeda Mesmer: Well -- having 90% of your peole who first log on -- disappear after 60 days or wahtever -- that is BAD management.

[18:33]  Boston Hutchinson: TV is what it is because it's paid for by advertising

[18:34]  You: But that's the beauty of Croquet potentially - it might night be built upon central

[18:34]  Boston Hutchinson: In all fairness to SL, it's a really tough problem--building the world with minimal resources.

[18:34]  Andromeda Mesmer: TV is also what it is because of TV lobbyists, and US government regs.

[18:34]  You: control of resources, reflecting the distributive nature of the Internet,

[18:35]  You: esp. if it draws on a kind of hacking ethos.

[18:35]  Boston Hutchinson: The problem is that to get a world going, you might need a lot of money, in which case, the money will impose some changes.

[18:36]  You: True - oh for something like the military's amazingly large funding of chip development, to benefit virtual worlds - something equivalent from Education and Health

[18:36]  Boston Hutchinson: Or maybe it can be done w/o money by hackers.

[18:36]  You: Perhaps, but the Internet actually has a lot of grass roots, communitarian, and hacking contributions that have shaped significant aspects.

[18:37]  Boston Hutchinson: Qwaq is using corporate needs (secure virtual conference rooms, etc.) to fund the development of Croquet

[18:37]  Andromeda Mesmer: The hackers may create some worlds, and corporations may create others ... co-exist, like Linux, Microsoft, Apple ..

[18:37]  You: if "University" could support virtual world development richly

[18:37]  Boston Hutchinson: Yes, hopefully they can coexist.

[18:38]  Boston Hutchinson: But Croquet has the potential to replace both the web and the operating systems.

[18:38]  You: Why not try to tap University as a resource, so that it becomes a metaplayer in the metaverse

[18:38]  Andromeda Mesmer: For what it's worth, Anshe Chung the businesswoman, is looking into investing in the transference of money from one virtual world to another.

[18:38]  You: A credit card approach, in a way

[18:39]  Boston Hutchinson: University is the originator of Croquet, in that most of the developers have been on University payrolls

[18:39]  You: Better University than corporations, at least, as an intermediary.

[18:39]  Andromeda Mesmer: Agreed.

[18:40]  You: Yes . . . then learning and knowledge-production are privileged on

[18:40]  You: over just money-making.

[18:41]  Boston Hutchinson: I think the ideal virtual world would be unconstrained by the need to pay for itself. It would be controlled by its users.

[18:41]  Andromeda Mesmer: Right.

[18:41]  Boston Hutchinson: But realistically, there is a lot of work to be done, and some funding models are probably required.

[18:41]  You: Then engaging University to act as intermediary with business becomes almost essential, if resources are to grow.

[18:42]  You: But big Science is one example, and, relatedly, big University

[18:42]  You: is another

[18:42]  Boston Hutchinson: Yes, the blend of free software with corporate applications has worked for Linux, and should work for Croquet.

[18:42]  You: And big University already has long standing arrangements with Business adn Government.

[18:43]  You: True

[18:43]  Boston Hutchinson: Yes.

[18:43]  You: Well, I need to leave where I am now.

[18:43]  You: It's very nice to chat with you.

[18:43]  Boston Hutchinson: Thanks for class. It was great!

[18:44]  You: Thanks for participating!

[18:44]  You: See you next time, and before.

[18:44]  Perry Proudhon is Online

[18:44]  You: :)

[18:44]  Andromeda Mesmer: See you, Aphilo :)

[18:44]  Boston Hutchinson: Nice to see you all!

[18:45]  You: Bye :)

[18:45]  Boston Hutchinson: Haveto go watch the Red Sox with my daughter.

[18:45]  Boston Hutchinson: Bye.

[18:45]  Boston Hutchinson is Offline