Society and Information Technology in Second Life

Wednesdays, August 29 - December 12 , 2007, 4-6, SLT/PT, 7-9 pm ET on Berkman island in Second Life

 Course homepage - http://socinfotech.pbwiki.com

 

Instructor: Scott MacLeod (not on Harvard's faculty) = Aphilo Aarde (in Second Life)

http://scottmacleod.com/papers.htm

 

 

 

Nov 6 2007 Soc and Info Tech Class Transcript

 

 

[16:01]  Boston Hutchinson: Hi Aphilo

[16:01]  You: HI Boston!

[16:01]  Breen Mathy is Offline

[16:01]  You: Nice to talk earlier.

[16:01]  You: Hello Andromeda!

[16:01]  Boston Hutchinson: Yes. There's a lot to learn about Croquet

[16:02]  Andromeda Mesmer: Hi Aphilo, Hi Boston

[16:02]  Boston Hutchinson: Hi Andromeda

[16:02]  You: In so many ways . . .

[16:02]  You: And yet as a game, it seems simple . . .

[16:02]  Meryl Villota is Offline

[16:02]  You: the windows are wickets, I suppose, metaphorically

[16:02]  Boston Hutchinson: Have you wandered through some of the Croqet islands? and tried creating objects and islands?

[16:03]  You: I'm just looking into that . . . I was in the hospital some today.

[16:03]  Boston Hutchinson: Yes I guess. I haven't really thought about the metaphors much.

[16:03]  You: Andromeda, have you visted croquet?

[16:03]  You: the virtual tools for another online world?

[16:03]  Boston Hutchinson: Hi Geda

[16:03]  You: Hello Geda!

[16:03]  Geda Hax: how annoying these particles are

[16:03]  Geda Hax: Hey guys , how are you all ?

[16:04]  Andromeda Mesmer: No - haven't had a chance yet. I would like to do some terraforming sometime.

[16:04]  You: Fine, thanks.

[16:04]  You: IN Croquet, A, or where?

[16:04]  You: HI Bobsas

[16:04]  Bobsas Silverspar: Hi

[16:05]  You: Welcome

[16:05]  Bobsas Silverspar: Thank you

[16:05]  Geda Hax: Hi Bob , meet Aphilo our teacher and Boston another very dedicated classmate

[16:05]  You: This is a class on Society and Information TEchnology - http://socinfotech.pbwiki.com - at large participation welcome

[16:05]  Boston Hutchinson: Hi Bob

[16:05]  Bobsas Silverspar: Pleasure

[16:06]  You: Last week, we were talking a little about social mobilization questions vis-a-vis the Internet

[16:06]  Andromeda Mesmer: Anywhere -- sorry Aphilo, I may crash at some point -- lag or something interfering.

[16:06]  You: And I'd like to sum up a little

[16:06]  You: Do you want to log out and in now?

[16:06]  Andromeda Mesmer: Yes.

[16:07]  Andromeda Mesmer is Offline

[16:08]  You: We were looking at some examples, of how change works, and the Internet has helped it to move to new forms of organizing.

[16:08]  Andromeda Mesmer is Online

[16:08]  Geda Hax: wb A

[16:08]  Bobsas Silverspar: Wb

[16:08]  You: Symbols are very significant, and the ability for anyone to post a point of view, and share this world wide, is far-reaching.

[16:08]  Andromeda Mesmer: :)

[16:09]  You: So, to act on power now, you have to act globally, but most people organize locally.

[16:09]  You: The Internet changes this.

[16:09]  You: And the Internet is SCALABLE.

[16:10]  You: ...up and down depending on what one needs, And it's always the same structure.

[16:10]  You: So values and code changes are organized around networking characterized by organizing locally and acting globally.

[16:10]  You: (The Berkman Center is a good example, actually)>

[16:11]  You: So "To fight networks - which are what are new in far-reaching ways and significant - you have to become networks"

[16:11]  Andromeda Mesmer: Explain "act on power" -- you mean with power, or act ON the powerful?

[16:11]  Andromeda Mesmer: Or both?

[16:12]  You: Now governments are still organized hierarchically, and not very networked.

[16:12]  Breen Mathy is Online

[16:12]  You: And networks visa vis the Internet are very flexible and quite horizontal.

[16:13]  You: The major thinking, on the other side, against the Zapatistas, which I used as an example last week.

[16:13]  You: ... transcripts are posted here - http://socinfotech.pbwiki.com -

[16:13]  Breen Mathy is Offline

[16:14]  You: The Zapatistas used symbols - masks - and the Internet when it was just becoming widely popular

[16:15]  You: in the mid 1990s - to fight successfully in the arena of world public opinion - against a very oppressive Mexican military which was controlling the media

[16:15]  You: And they were able with mostly white Intellectuals, many of whom were in San Francisco - to bring public attention to their plight, where 100s were killed.

[16:16]  You: so the Internet became signficant early in life and death issues.

[16:17]  You: Some Rand Corporation researchers - Arquilla and Rondfeld -identitife the Zapatistas an a kind of enemy

[16:17]  You: Governments are desparately movt to think through the implications of the Internet

[16:17]  You: To be flexible and to reorganize governments is difficult

[16:17]  You: These 'machines' are heavy

[16:18]  Breen Mathy is Online

[16:18]  You: When companies and governments, and even movements for change were all bureacracies

[16:19]  You: any bureaucracy vs. bureaucracy challenge, meant the government wins, through size

[16:19]  You: Networks are different

[16:19]  You: The Internet fits perfectly with movements for change - without the Internet, movements couldn't act globally.

[16:20]  You: without the Internet movements couldn't work the way they work

[16:20]  You: The Internet does more than facilitate and it's indispensable.

[16:20]  You: CITIZEN NETWORKS

[16:20]  You: When the internet was just becoming wide spread and popular

[16:21]  Breen Mathy is Offline

[16:21]  You: citizen networks emerged

[16:21]  You: IN today's political system, people feel very alienated from government

[16:21]  You: Teh emergence of citizen computer netwroks - is directly linked to the emergence of computer networks.

[16:22]  Breen Mathy is Online

[16:22]  You: (As I've said in the past - conversations can be rich in type in SL - especially back-chat)

[16:22]  You: (and these technolgoies shape new forms of communication - so please share thoughts, observations and questions)

[16:23]  Boston Hutchinson: The action that a movement takes on the Internet seems more like an art than a science. Can it be quantified? Its it measuable in tourist dollars or votes? Why are some movements effective and others not?

[16:23]  You: An example of a citizen network in the mid-1980s - in Santa Monica, CA:

[16:24]  You: Good questions

[16:24]  Geda Hax: click views

[16:24]  You: I think these movement are quantified through email lists, and fund raising ability, and political clout

[16:25]  You: Moveon.org was very successful at highlighting specific issues with great savvy, adn reaching their constituent audience with specific actions

[16:25]  Andromeda Mesmer: Something in the news from just a few days ago -- that the Ron Paul Presidential campaign is raising a lot of money through internet supporters of Ron Paul.

[16:25]  You: Meetings in homes, etc.

[16:26]  You: yes . . Ron Paul is quite focused on teh Internet, and has support form both sides of the aisle.

[16:26]  You: The Pen program in Santa Monica was set up by community groups and citizens of Santa Monica

[16:27]  You: e.g. citizens

[16:27]  You: who were homeless - the city allowed them a voice through the PEN program

[16:28]  You: The city mad esure homeless could access debates, in telephone booths, for example, givingin them passwords, even i f living on the street.

[16:28]  You: Another famous experiemnt

[16:28]  You: Teh Seattle community network

[16:28]  You: Thousands and thousands of people proposed providing access to the Internet for homeless and mobilized them

[16:28]  You: Hello Breen.

[16:29]  You: This happened in Cleveland

[16:29]  You: And the Amsterdam Digital City - DDS - de Digital Stad - was started in 1994 and it still exists

[16:29]  You: It was the most sophisticated at that time, and it was the first

[16:30]  You: Second Life is a successor

[16:30]  You: DDS was an electronic community for residents and visitors

[16:30]  You: it employed the metaphor of a city.

[16:30]  You: It had images of houses, cafes, a city hall, politcial halls, billboards, a central station

[16:31]  You: People who are residents there wouldgo into a hall to get land

[16:31]  You: This space was assignted to a home

[16:31]  You: Any home inactive for 3 months could be a squat.

[16:32]  You: Homes were divided into flats

[16:32]  You: and subletted into different rooms

[16:32]  You: i.e. they would sublet disk space

[16:32]  You: IT was a shared space - the city became denser and denser - until it had 140,000 residents

[16:33]  You: Of coures, you can be from anywhere.

[16:33]  Luna Bliss is Offline

[16:33]  You: It was accepted that you can rside if you don't leave DDS

[16:33]  You: 30% of the residents were from the Netherlands at its peak, and most of the site is in Dutch

[16:33]  You: They elected a Mayor, electroncially

[16:34]  You: And they had intense political events, - they also set up homes from pictures.

[16:34]  You: On the otehr hand, the city of Amsterdam funded the experience

[16:34]  You: They were interested in the experience of citizien particpation

[16:35]  You: Residents of the digital city would have access to any files in the digital archive.

[16:35]  You: If citizens wanted to go thorugh documents, the could. So it was fully transparent

[16:35]  You: It was a citizen participation experiment.

[16:35]  You: And it was a huge success.

[16:36]  You: It became the largest network in the world.

[16:36]  You: Why was such an experience possible?

[16:36]  You: Amesterdam had two big traditions.

[16:36]  You: 1 - it's a major cetner for computer science

[16:36]  You: where hackers were in great numbers - and who were politically active, esp. in the 3rd world.

[16:37]  You: 2 It was a liberal environment - with a strong squatters movement and a student counterculture

[16:37]  You: They never accepted the offer of living in suburbs

[16:37]  You: And they were directly connected to the Media World.

[16:38]  You: They developed a movement around multimedia

[16:38]  You: and shaped movements within the digital city.

[16:38]  You: It started in 1989 and 90 (typo before DDS began in the mid 90s)

[16:39]  You: with 2 important events

[16:39]  You: 1 - 1989 - the galactic hackers party - the first open party

[16:40]  You: and 2 - in 1990 with a cultural and political movemetn called the Zero positive ball - when HIV was at a crisis in the Western world

[16:41]  You: The event organized people who were HIV positive in solidarity against the US, which had fobideen visa to HIV Europeans

[16:41]  You: And they connected in real time by computers over the Internet

[16:41]  You: DDS is a good example of the connection between new causes, and social networks for change

[16:42]  You: Amsterdam was so successful that the city of A decided taht DDS had to finance themselves - to take over its own site -

[16:42]  Arawn Spitteler is Offline

[16:42]  Andromeda Mesmer: A friend is coming.

[16:42]  You: So Amsterdam city stopped financing it.

[16:43]  You: Among community groups themselves - any group could have free access and citizen participation combined

[16:43]  Enapa Pennell: greetings all

[16:43]  You: Hackers called the Network "Access fo all"

[16:43]  Patrio Graysmark is Online

[16:44]  Boston Hutchinson: Hi Enapa

[16:44]  You: Hello Enapa, Breen

[16:44]  Bobsas Silverspar: Hola

[16:44]  Geda Hax: hi there

[16:44]  Breen Mathy: hello aphilo

[16:44]  You: Free, DDS was bought by Dutch Telecom, for advertising

[16:45]  Chinadoll Lulu is Online

[16:45]  You: The Digital City itself become commercial - a nonprofit & profit arrangement - split between community and commercial interests

[16:46]  You: It was dependent on a .com company - after the 2000 .com collapse

[16:46]  You: they closed in November of 2000

[16:46]  You: And now the movement is up and running again.

[16:47]  You: Now, there are thousands of community Networks around the world

[16:47]  You: The ability for people to connect local concerns

[16:47]  You: with global issues is very far-reaching due to teh Internet

[16:47]  You: NEW TOPIC

[16:48]  You: So now I'd like to begin to examine the New Economy vis-a-vis information technology.

[16:48]  You: And the Roadmap for this looks like this:

[16:49]  You: It's not the economy of .com companies

[16:49]  You: or of internet companies.

[16:49]  You: It's the economy of companeis that work by, through, and aroud the Internet - what used to be the Industrial economy, which was organized around electricity

[16:50]  You: .com companies are just one exmaple.

[16:50]  You: NEW ECONOMY

[16:50]  You: There are 3 interrelated features

[16:50]  You: 1. It's global

[16:50]  You: 2. It's networked - around e-business

[16:50]  You: and 3. It's information based

[16:51]  You: IN its networking form - as abusiness - it's organize around electronic processes

[16:51]  You: Productivity depends on knowledge generation and information processing.

[16:52]  You: This evening: Globalization - and particularly 2 aspects

[16:52]  You: 1. the dimensions of trade and

[16:52]  You: 2. what happens in terms of globalization at the world level

[16:52]  You: Who is included and who is excluded and why?

[16:53]  You: This new economy works on an economic model based on information technology, which is microelectronically based

[16:53]  You: Withou the microelectronic economy, we would not have globalization

[16:54]  You: The argument I'd like to make is that it is not technology that creates socity, but society couldn't exist without it.

[16:54]  You: Our society is not produced by technology (but by all kinds of things),

[16:54]  You: but without technology, we couldn't have this form of organization.

[16:54]  You: GLOBALIZATION

[16:54]  You: What does this mean?

[16:55]  Creepy Triangle shouts: Chair orb away

[16:55]  You: It isn't just its international dimension

[16:55]  Perry Proudhon is Online

[16:55]  You: The 19th century was very global, not global, but international

[16:56]  You: Even since the 16th cetnure in the West, we've had a world empire

[16:56]  You: E.g. Spanish with America, the Caribbean, etc.

[16:56]  You: This is a very specail kind of global economy.

[16:56]  You: How interconnected?

[16:56]  You: the connection was very strong

[16:57]  You: 1st example - in the early 17th centurey, LIma - the Spanish capital in the New world had one galleon convoy once a year

[16:57]  You: What is the global economy today?

[16:58]  You: The global eocnomy is the capacity to work as a unit in real time on a planetary scale.

[16:58]  You: capacity particularly n three areas

[16:58]  You: 1 technological

[16:58]  You: 2 organizational

[16:58]  You: 3 institutional

[16:58]  You: Real time means right here, right now!

[16:59]  You: It's sophisticated definition - real or chosen time is time which one controls

[16:59]  You: The Planetary scale means that one is everywhere

[16:59]  You: The unit is planetary

[16:59]  You: Things happen and work as a unit

[17:00]  You: there is no American economy, no French economy

[17:00]  You: The unit is planetary

[17:00]  You: There are specific aspects in territories

[17:00]  Breen Mathy is Offline

[17:00]  You: But the Unit, - how things work, reltaed to teh market,e tc - this is glboal.

[17:00]  Arawn Spitteler is Online

[17:01]  You: (So let's take a 7 minute break now - and I have to stop promptly at 9, and go out-world, as my brother is visiting from out of town)

[17:01]  Geda Hax: all right Ap

[17:02]  You: (See you in 7 minutes or so, and we can chat, as well then) :)

[17:02]  Enapa Pennell: ok

[17:02]  Geda Hax: ok to strech my legs

[17:03]  Andromeda Mesmer: Me to

[17:03]  Enapa Pennell: Thank you for the invite, Andromeda

[17:04]  Andromeda Mesmer: You are welcome -- I am finding this very interesting and informative too -- I didn't know about the elecronic Amsterdam ...

[17:04]  Andromeda Mesmer: Now -- off to a RL kitchen for someting to eat :)

[17:04]  Enapa Pennell: There is a hot bed of social activism in northern europe.

[17:05]  Enapa Pennell: There is a different type of social construction, called "Cristiana".

[17:05]  Enapa Pennell: An abandoned wearhouse district

[17:06]  Enapa Pennell: which was set up with no law enforcement, no government

[17:06]  Enapa Pennell: people squatted and lived by any means possible.

[17:06]  Diego Ibanez is Online

[17:06]  Enapa Pennell: It just closed this year

[17:10]  You: Hello

[17:10]  Enapa Pennell: Its not in Amsterdam, but in Copenhagen.

[17:10]  You: Eveyone

[17:10]  You: What's that, Enapa?

[17:10]  Enapa Pennell: Christiania

[17:10]  Enapa Pennell: a different style of social experiment in northern europe

[17:11]  You: Will you tell us more about how it relates to the Intenret, if it does?

[17:11]  You: I've heard of it.

[17:11]  Enapa Pennell: It doesn't really relate to the internet, but, if one looks at the social aspects of the internet..

[17:12]  Enapa Pennell: one should look at extra cultural social experiments in other settings

[17:12]  You: Yes, it makes for an interesting comparison with an online community

[17:12]  Bobsas Silverspar: Thanks every one ... I have a meeting in RL ...I will be back ... Thanks for having me

[17:12]  You: Nice to meet you , and thanks for coming.

[17:12]  Andromeda Mesmer: It sounded like the RL version of the electronic Amsterdam

[17:13]  You: Here's a list of New Age communities in wikipedia, but which doesn't mention DDS - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Age_communities

[17:13]  You: I add it perhaps

[17:13]  Enapa Pennell: could be, its what came to mind when I was reading the back notes

[17:14]  Andromeda Mesmer: Aphilo -- BTW - you have an invisible audience, somewhat removed in time from here -- 3 people can't ever come, because of schedule -- but they get the notes and read them carefully.

[17:14]  You: I was reading some of what you were saying while I was away, and squatting is legal in HOlland, for example.

[17:14]  You: Or parts of it are.

[17:14]  You: Thanks for letting me know, A.

[17:15]  You: And it's an important form of housing in some cases, where poverty is endemic.

[17:15]  You: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squatting

[17:15]  You: But let's get back to the new economy

[17:15]  Enapa Pennell: One of the interesting things that is up and coming in the technological new economy.

[17:16]  You: Yes

[17:16]  Enapa Pennell: is the concept of IP, not as in Internet, but as in Intellectual Property

[17:16]  Champler Snook is Offline

[17:16]  Enapa Pennell: the microcircuits you mentioned

[17:17]  Enapa Pennell: are more and more designed by botique designers and not by big chip manufaturers

[17:17]  You: Yes, - and the Berkman Center at the Harvard Law School - this is Berkman Island - is publishing a lot of that, Enapa, as I suspect you know

[17:17]  You: Creative Commons law is a fascinating development here, and I think it emerges out of the Berkman Center

[17:18]  Enapa Pennell: known as "fabless" designers

[17:18]  You: for example

[17:18]  You: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creative_commons

[17:18]  Enapa Pennell: yes, the CC license is in wide use at my school

[17:19]  You: Yes, I can imagine - as it allows to synthesize exisitng media

[17:19]  Enapa Pennell: These fabless design shops create "building blocks" that are added as components in large scale chip designs.

[17:19]  You: Which makes chip design more real time, and versatile

[17:20]  Enapa Pennell: My point being that these are very high tech outfits, but they could reside anywhere

[17:20]  You: So air transportation is an example of a real time unit

[17:20]  You: Yes, Enapa - we'll get to that quite specifically.

[17:20]  Enapa Pennell: and ship their designs to fabrication facilities in several different places around the world.

[17:21]  You: Air transporation moves millions and miooions and mioons of units statistically, as one

[17:21]  Whitelight Christiansen is Online

[17:21]  You: Yes, R& D tends to stay near knowledge centers, and it's very easy to ship design to fabs and factories anywhere in teh world

[17:22]  You: No one said globalizatin is great.

[17:22]  You: Technological capacity means information systems - with tolearable mistakes

[17:22]  Enapa Pennell: so, why do these activities need to reside in proxcimity to knowledge centers?

[17:23]  You: Organizationsl capacity refers to frims that have retooled themselves so they can work both locally and globally

[17:24]  You: (R & D is similarly networked, and originally emerged in Silicon Valley and the Bay Area, and to some degree in Boston, and then has spread, but networkds of researchers have tended to remain in common locales, due to synergies, produced by proimity).

[17:25]  Jon Seattle is Offline

[17:25]  You: Institutional capacity referes to governemtns which have lifted restrictioins of movement to capital flows, and increasing goods, services and technologies

[17:26]  You: If we can move capital, money, labor freely, globalization occurs

[17:26]  Enapa Pennell: labor is difficult to move.

[17:27]  You: And in the last 15 years, the phemonenon of liberaliztion, privatization, and deregulation, has had far-reaching effects on globalziation

[17:27]  You: (Hello Echo)

[17:27]  Echo Abruzzo: hi

[17:27]  You: Liberal means that barriers to trade have been reduced

[17:27]  You: Deregulation means that companies could do more or less waht they wanted

[17:28]  You: Privatization means refers to a move from public to private ownership

[17:28]  Enapa Pennell: But regulation and international agreements on the IP I mentioned earlier are barriers to globalization.

[17:28]  You: These major institutional changes are new and allowed globalization to occur.

[17:28]  Geda Hax: well labors can be moved to places that have a reasonable capability and cost less

[17:29]  You: True . . .

[17:29]  Enapa Pennell: as well as the enablers

[17:29]  You: yet globalization affects goods, services, people, captial and information -

[17:29]  Geda Hax nods

[17:29]  Boston Hutchinson: You can't separate the fabs from the designers unless there's strong IP protection

[17:29]  You: movment of these on an unprecedencted scale

[17:30]  You: Yes

[17:30]  Enapa Pennell: exactly, Boston

[17:31]  You: These major institutional changes - libaralization, privatization, and deregulation - are new and allowed globalization to occur

[17:31]  Enapa Pennell: and as manufacturing moves to locations with an adequate workforce but overall lower cost of production

[17:31]  You: yes . . . and in specific ways

[17:31]  Enapa Pennell: these protections for the designers are going to become more and more important

[17:31]  You: Deregulation is absolutely cricital to understanding globalization

[17:32]  You: That's why globalization is new as of the past 25 year

[17:32]  You: years

[17:32]  You: So the unit becomes global

[17:32]  Enapa Pennell: But, I'm agueing the opposite, Regulation is important to protect IP rights

[17:32]  You: The easiest point to understand is PRODUCTION

[17:33]  You: It isn't the most important - - finance is

[17:33]  Enapa Pennell: deregulation is needed in order to free capital movement to the most productive production centers.

[17:33]  You: Production is the oldest - for both manufacturing and services

[17:33]  Geda Hax: yep .... if you dont cut down costs to improve your profitability your competitors will , reinvesting money to gain market share , improving technologies used , getting better and cheaper products ..... well , you all know this

[17:33]  You: - organized by companies, multinationals and auxiliaries

[17:33]  Kid Kuhn is Offline

[17:34]  Bruce Flyer is Online

[17:35]  You: This form of production - assembly line - thoughout the plant - represents a traditional model of industry in the 1980s - It's prototypes came from R& D center in Silicon Vally.

[17:35]  You: (Hello Bruce)

[17:35]  Boston Hutchinson: Hi Bruce

[17:35]  Bruce Flyer: hi all

[17:35]  Geda Hax: Hey there Bruce

[17:36]  Enapa Pennell: (greetings)

[17:36]  You: Then,there were large plants of skilled workers in teh West, but not so skilled that ou ahve to pay the high wages to pay housing costs of Silicon Valley

[17:36]  You: Factories don't need to be close to teh core of R & D

[17:37]  You: - Assembly shops in SE Asia - Singapore, Asia, Thailand became critical

[17:37]  You: - Assembly plants work on teh basis of cheap women labor who are sometimes committed to teh factory by parents

[17:37]  Enapa Pennell: correct, which is why Intel and AMD built big fabs in New Mexico, Texas, Germany and elsewhere.

[17:37]  You: - and testing is done close to main markets around the world.

[17:38]  You: Since the Unit became planetary, Intel doesn't think of itself as a

[17:38]  You: Silicon Vally company.

[17:38]  You: MULTINATIONALS

[17:38]  You: are only part of the story

[17:38]  Enapa Pennell: (corp states)

[17:38]  You: they emply a fraction of Worldwide labor - around 150 million of the 3 billion world wide labor force

[17:39]  You: 60% of the worlds work force is in agriculture

[17:39]  You: And less than 10%of the remaineder would work for technology companies - this is a gross estimate

[17:39]  You: These less than 10% acocunt for 40% of Gross Domestic Product GDP

[17:40]  You: And 2/3rds of it is from international trade

[17:40]  You: which means that these technology companies determine everything else everywhere

[17:40]  You: So there is an internationalization of production

[17:41]  You: Work in a production system which is globalized, is convenient for some purposes

[17:41]  Veeyawn Spoonhammer is Offline

[17:41]  You: It allows one to locate every different function in areas better for that particular operation

[17:42]  You: Where is Labor cheaper?

[17:42]  You: Thailand, Hong Kong, the Congo

[17:42]  Geda Hax: india

[17:42]  You: So the thinking goes - and "would you locate in the Congo?"

[17:43]  You: Like California in 1999 with the Enron debacle and scandal - it doesn't have electricity.

[17:43]  Geda Hax: some call centers are there ....Cisco has one there if I am not mistaken

[17:43]  You: It's a depressing situation

[17:43]  Bruce Flyer: i understand China is moving into Africa in a big way now

[17:44]  You: Before locating in a place to make cheap computers, a company makes sure conditions are met, in temrs of infrastructure

[17:44]  You: Yes, Bruce - conditions are great, and work is requried to extract profits - they aren't the easy profits which corporations seek - in Africa

[17:44]  Geda Hax: but Ap , what other and better chances would these guys have without these multinationals arrival ?

[17:44]  You: Some companies locate in Silicon Valley to look for talent

[17:45]  Enapa Pennell: My worry is that this global economy will result in over-specialization. Without versatility a disruptive technology could cripple an economy.

[17:45]  Bruce Flyer: like fields of crop that are genetically identical?

[17:45]  You: I was in India on Semester at Sea in 2005, and the us consulate politcal rep came aboard to talk wtih everyone

[17:45]  Sysku Mayo is Online

[17:46]  Enapa Pennell: good point, Bruce. Precisely

[17:46]  You: And I asked that quesiton, Geda - and he suggested, too, not just out of self-serving US interests - that the hope for India is Dell, etc.

[17:46]  Veeyawn Spoonhammer is Online

[17:47]  You: So some companies locate in Silicon Valley to look for talent - from all over the world - great universities are there - and becasue S.V attractstalent.

[17:47]  You: The production system is articulated internationally.

[17:48]  You: Where companies are more or less today - 2/3 of International trade is linked to mulinational system

[17:48]  You: 45% of global trade is located in S.V. or related networks

[17:48]  You: And Intra company trade is the most substantial part.

[17:48]  Diego Ibanez is Offline

[17:48]  You: How many multinationalsa are there?

[17:49]  You: 53,600 with 416000 subsidiaries in 2000.

[17:49]  You: Not a lot in terms of the global trade

[17:49]  Bruce Flyer: but today small companies can be international more easily than in the past

[17:49]  You: Much more easily . . .

[17:49]  Sysku Mayo is Offline

[17:50]  You: I'm going to stop there for tonight so we might talk for the last 10 mintues

[17:50]  Geda Hax: amen , glad I am alive to see it

[17:50]  You: (I have to leave punctually at 9, as my brother has come from out of town).

[17:50]  Geda Hax: Sure thing Ap

[17:51]  Geda Hax: thanks

[17:51]  Bruce Flyer: what do you wish to see, Geda?

[17:51]  Boston Hutchinson: It's still pretty difficult to employ people in multiple jurisdictions--taxes, insurance, regulations--The overhead is huge.

[17:51]  Enapa Pennell: unfortunately, successful small companys rarely become large. They get absorbed into the existing multinational conglomorates.

[17:51]  Geda Hax: international trades getting easier and easier

[17:51]  Geda Hax: my graduation is international trade btw

[17:51]  Bruce Flyer: :-)

[17:52]  You: Yes, Boston, and although mutinational companies are global, loyalty goes to teh country that flies the flag where the opeartion is located

[17:52]  You: But almost all companies' top management is from one country

[17:52]  You: are*

[17:53]  Andromeda Mesmer: I can tell you what I am looking forward to -- three researchers at the University of Alberta in Canada have taken out patents on regrowth of teeth -- and that is likely just the beginning -- wonderful how researchers can travel around, do work here and there, collaborate -- Cuban cancer drugs were being tested in the US.

[17:53]  You: Yes, companies are very quickly bought and sold these days.

[17:53]  Patrio Graysmark is Offline

[17:53]  Bruce Flyer: these should be opportunities for companies that help small companies with the legal aspects of becoming international

[17:53]  You: All consequences of information production, in a way

[17:54]  You: Yes . . . what is key in many of these networks vis a vis the informaiton age, is immigrant entrepreneurs

[17:54]  Breen Mathy is Online

[17:54]  Boston Hutchinson: I think there are, Bruce, but it's still expensive to hire one person in another country.

[17:54]  Enapa Pennell: yes, one of the wonderful improvements in the world from the 20 to the 21st century is the transfer of data.

[17:55]  You: The often come to the US, get a Ph.D., ad half stay, get a green card, set up company, and then return, while the other half have already returned

[17:55]  You: And they help shape these new networks and navigate legal issues.

[17:55]  Enapa Pennell: not just voice and fax anymore, but big blocks of stuff like genomes and biological data.

[17:55]  Bruce Flyer: could a company incorporate in SL?

[17:56]  You: Data is at the base of it all - and document transfer

[17:56]  Andromeda Mesmer: Wonderful question Bruce.

[17:56]  Andromeda Mesmer: I don't think that is possible right now --

[17:56]  You: WE were talking about this last fall as well - it's a very interesting question

[17:56]  Bruce Flyer: I know some Harvard lawyers here. :-)

[17:56]  Xirconnia Morphett is Online

[17:57]  You: but SL doesn't yet have laws, only Terms of Service - which Linden Lab determines

[17:57]  Andromeda Mesmer: There have been associations like the assocation of democratic sims ...

[17:57]  Bruce Flyer: it would give new meaning to off shore

[17:57]  You: And the Metaverse still does not have a constitution, although there are people working on this, as well - google it.

[17:57]  Andromeda Mesmer: LOL

[17:57]  Boston Hutchinson: You can pay people in Linden Dollars, but eventually, you'll run into state and federal and international employment and tax laws.

[17:58]  Andromeda Mesmer: off-off shore :)

[17:58]  Bruce Flyer: Aphilo, were you teaching at sea?

[17:58]  You: Yes, it's all very plausible . . security is also a signficant issue.

[17:58]  Geda Hax: is THE issue

[17:58]  You: I was helping to organize trips, but have an offer to teach

[17:58]  You: Yes, it's all very plausible . . security is also a signficant issue.

[17:58]  Geda Hax: is THE issue

[17:58]  You: I was helping to organize trips, but have an offer to teach

[17:58]  Boston Hutchinson: I think people only get away with it now because the amounts of money are relatively small.

[17:58]  Enapa Pennell: hmm, data havens are a new phenonomon. SL is just one example

[17:58]  You: Yes, and law

[17:59]  Bruce Flyer: say hello to your brother for us, please

[17:59]  Enapa Pennell: be well, Aphilo. Thanks

[17:59]  Andromeda Mesmer: 1 minute before your coach arrives, Aphilo

[18:00]  You: will do - thanks for coming -

[18:00]  You: See you next week.

[18:00]  Enapa Pennell claps

[18:00]  Arawn Spitteler is Offline

[18:00]  Boston Hutchinson: Thanks, Aphilo

[18:00]  You: Thanks

[18:00]  Meryl Villota is Online

[18:00]  Breen Mathy: Thank you for letting me sit in for awhile,

[18:00]  You: See you soon - yes - you've welcome -

[18:00]  Bruce Flyer is Offline

[18:00]  You: I'll post the transcript here

[18:00]  You: http://socinfotech.pbwiki.com

[18:00]  You: See you later.

http://socinfotech.pbwiki.com