Nov 14 2007 Soc and Info Tech Class Transcript

[16:00]  Ralph Radius: Hi

[16:00]  You: Hi All

[16:00]  Andromeda Mesmer: Hi Aphilo, Hi Rain

[16:00]  Ralph Radius: Hi everybody

[16:00]  Rain Ninetails: Hi Rommie! thanks for the notes!

[16:00]  You: How are you?

[16:01]  Rain Ninetails: :)

[16:01]  Andromeda Mesmer: I'm fine!

[16:01]  You: Great

[16:01]  Teresa Cinquetti is Online

[16:01]  Boston Hutchinson: Hi everybody

[16:01]  Andromeda Mesmer: Hi Boston

[16:01]  Sariah Chihuly is Online

[16:01]  Ralph Radius: Hi Boston

[16:01]  You: Hi Boston!

[16:01]  You: Ralph, A, Rain

[16:01]  Ralph Radius: Hi

[16:02]  You: Can you imagine beginning to speak with your avatar, if it might gain independence from us?

[16:02]  You: Hi Geda

[16:02]  Ralph Radius: Hi Geda

[16:02]  Andromeda Mesmer: Hi Geda.

[16:02]  Geda Hax: Hi guys

[16:02]  Boston Hutchinson: Hi Geda

[16:03]  You: How might avatars becoming independent work? It's a science fiction-related question, in a sense.

[16:03]  Boston Hutchinson: Avatar as agent?

[16:03]  You: It would involve differentiation of software - ours from our avatars.

[16:03]  You: That's right.

[16:04]  Arawn Spitteler is Offline

[16:04]  You: It might be fun to explore this question for a few minutes

[16:04]  Andromeda Mesmer: In a sense - a sort of twin -- but it feels very much like me.

[16:04]  You: Yes . . . So software differentiates . . . mac os from windows xp from ubuntu linux

[16:04]  You: so differetn codes exist

[16:05]  You: And humans are encoded, in a sense, genetically, for example, and what we learn is much mediated by symbols, another code.

[16:06]  You: But in humans, moving from brains to subjective experience, may never be understandable - it's a central question of the philosophy of mind

[16:06]  You: So neural code - however that works - to symbolically and mind mediated experience would be difficult to translate to avatars

[16:07]  Andromeda Mesmer: Self-awareness is the key here, I think. Dogs and cats seem to have a sense of "I"

[16:07]  You: But the Turing test suggests that if a human can't differentiate between a machine that's talking like a human and a human, then it posseses a form of artificial intelligence

[16:08]  You: Yes, Ralph

[16:08]  Andromeda Mesmer: I was going to suggest what you just said, Aphilo.

[16:08]  Boston Hutchinson: But no machine has passed the Turing test and may not for decades yet, even according to the most optimistic AI proponents.

[16:09]  You: Another way of stating an aspect of the body mind question - how the brain gives rise to subjective experience

[16:09]  Andromeda Mesmer: ? Boston? I thought they did.

[16:09]  Andromeda Mesmer: In some tests.

[16:09]  You: is to ask how to bring together a first person and third person view of, for example, the taste of mango in a persons brain.

[16:09]  Boston Hutchinson: It would have to be a very limited test, and that's not the way Alan Turing defined it.

[16:10]  You: Yes, Boston, so perhaps that won't be a useful approach in envisioning how avatars might become independent.

[16:10]  Andromeda Mesmer: OK.

[16:10]  You: Which ones, A? Do you know, by any chance?

[16:11]  You: So, speaking speculatively, what if our avatars could begin to save ina database everything we have thus said

[16:11]  You: sorry, *so far said

[16:11]  Boston Hutchinson: Right. No robotic twins for a while, but Ray Kurzweil says it will happen around 2030 or 2040

[16:11]  You: as avatars

[16:11]  matrix05 Infinity is Online

[16:11]  You: and then begin to synthesize them

[16:11]  Andromeda Mesmer: I remember some Q and A tests, small discussions between the guinea pig humans -- and the exerpimental set up of real humans and computer programs. In some cases, it was not possible to distinguise, and in some cases, the humans were taken to be programs.

[16:11]  You: Ray Kurzweil is one of the most successful predictors of the digital and technologcial future.

[16:12]  You: But this is an opportuity to brain storm and just share idea

[16:12]  Claryssa Schmidt is Online

[16:12]  You: Boston has AI, philosophy, programming and psychology training

[16:12]  You: Thanks A

[16:13]  You: What if our avatars started to talk back to us :)

[16:13]  You: No they didn't want to do this or that or say this or that? :)

[16:13]  You: How might that work.

[16:13]  Boston Hutchinson: Most of that was long ago... I'm a little out of date!

[16:14]  You: Could a database synthesize everything our avatars have said, and then reassemble it?

[16:14]  Boston Hutchinson: Avatars could do life logging, holding our memories for us.

[16:14]  You: hypothetically, in novel, and agent like ways?

[16:14]  You: But you're quite familiar with some of the major questions, Boston . .

[16:14]  Andromeda Mesmer: What wold be the motivations of the avatar, to disagree? How would it have acquired values?

[16:15]  You: Yes - how would life logging work?

[16:15]  Boston Hutchinson: They could surf the web (and Second Life?) looking for places and ideas and products that we want.

[16:15]  matrix05 Infinity is Offline

[16:15]  You: To assert independence . . .that would a key and interesting moment in encoding.

[16:15]  You: yes, and drawing from things we have said all along.

[16:16]  matrix05 Infinity is Online

[16:16]  Boston Hutchinson: Life logging involves carring recording devices that keep track of ererything you do with GPS tags and all. You then can look up any date and time in your past.

[16:16]  Andromeda Mesmer: But supposing it does disagree -- well, I would have to respect that. It shows it is an independent "person" -- and the relationship might then change to a co-operative one. Or the avatar may wish to separate from me, reason being that I might be holding it back.

[16:16]  You: And, A, to add to a conversation in a novel way . . . also an interesting moment in encoding or programming . . . that self-recognition, differentiation moment.

[16:16]  Ralph Radius: I think that would take a lot of intelligence.

[16:17]  You: Yes, Ralph, and not just a synthesis of a past record of dialogue, semantically reconstrued.

[16:17]  Coene Soyuz is Offline

[16:17]  Andromeda Mesmer: There is a scene about self-awareness coming to the computer "Mike" in Heinlein's "Moon is a Harsh Mistress." The fellow in charge of maintenance does not tell others.

[16:17]  You: . ... and sematnically synthesized.

[16:17]  Boston Hutchinson: Well, your avatar might correct you when you misquoted someone or got a fact wrong.

[16:18]  Ralph Radius: If I had full access to someone's SL life long I don't know how well I could guess their personality or what they would do next.

[16:18]  You: Interesting, A . . . yes it quickl y moves to science ficiton

[16:18]  Boston Hutchinson: They would have better memory and the ability to interact very rapidly in machine language with the internet

[16:18]  You: yet avatars are quite life like in a sense

[16:18]  You: thinking broadly,and differently, can we envision other ways to shape

[16:18]  Boston Hutchinson: That part's not science fiction.

[16:18]  You: agency for avatars.

[16:19]  Andromeda Mesmer: Very lifelike -- breathing adds to the illusion.

[16:19]  You: yes, Boston

[16:19]  You: The database and semantic synthesis program would have to construct independence.

[16:19]  Boston Hutchinson: But I don't think we'll recognize them as sentient beings for a while. Think of Microsoft "clippie"

[16:20]  Ralph Radius: I think that AV's seem life like beause other people animate them and because our own AV does what we want it to do.

[16:20]  You: yes, a, one might program breathing, in the same way that many of SL avatars actions are programmed and SL stylized

[16:20]  Boston Hutchinson: That's supposed to be your avatar in Microsoft Office.

[16:20]  You: Yes, Boston, but avatars in dialogue, do take on social aspects of behavior, beyond clippie

[16:21]  Boston Hutchinson: Sorry, my typing got lost.... Microsoft "Clippie" is a kind of avatar agent. Not very smart yet!

[16:21]  You: There is always a puppeteer behind the puppet in SL

[16:21]  Ralph Radius: Yes

[16:21]  jeanrem Beebe is Online

[16:21]  You: Or a person behind the mask

[16:21]  Ralph Radius: Yes

[16:22]  You: It would be fun to explore this occasionally over the upcoming weeks,

[16:22]  You: but let's soon return to talking about what's new in the economy vis a vis the information technology revolution.

[16:22]  You: Hello Ingela!

[16:22]  Boston Hutchinson: As Andromeda pointed out earlier, some "robots" have passed a limited test of seeming human. This can work in very prescribed contexts.

[16:23]  Claryssa Schmidt is Offline

[16:23]  ingela Lubitsch: ciao!

[16:23]  You: This is a course on "Society and Information TEchnology" -http://socinfotech.pbwiki.com - at large participation is welcome

[16:23]  Andromeda Mesmer: The communications were via keyboard only. IIRC it was about 15 years ago.

[16:23]  Meryl Villota is Online

[16:24]  You: Yes, Boston and A, and it might be interesting to synthesize some of those studies with these questions, over time.

[16:24]  You: I see, A

[16:24]  You: (I will post the transcript to the web at the above address)

[16:25]  Boston Hutchinson: There was once a program (I think it was that long ago) in which a computer pretended to be a psychotherapist. It worked pretty well as long as it was just encouraging the patient to talk. It wasn't so good at answering questions.

[16:25]  You: Last week we were talking about the significant changes that occur with the Internet revolution

[16:25]  You: in the global economy

[16:25]  Diego Ibanez is Online

[16:26]  Claryssa Schmidt is Online

[16:26]  You: Yes, Boston, but to re-envision avatars with just a hint of differentiation and agency , somewhere in the dialogue process in w orld, does not seem like much of a stretch.

[16:27]  You: So the logic of a lgobalized world vis-a-vis information technology is a slightly depressing situation

[16:28]  Boston Hutchinson: I don't think we would mistake them for intelligent. We simply don't have anything much beyond insect intelligence that can run on a PC.

[16:28]  You: Because companies will wait to locate in any given place to make sure conditions are met - infrastructure, particularly

[16:28]  You: Yes, Boston, but a book comes to mind

[16:29]  You: which I've only skimmed, which might be another starting point

[16:29]  Claryssa Schmidt is Offline

[16:29]  You: Steve Grand's "Creation: Life and How to Make it" (Harvard)

[16:29]  You: He made an ealry game called something like 'Creatures' and I think he explored some of these questions.

[16:30]  You: Quite a grand :) title

[16:30]  Boston Hutchinson: Interesting. I'll have to check it out.

[16:30]  Claryssa Schmidt is Online

[16:30]  Boston Hutchinson: http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog/GRACRE.html

[16:31]  You: I think Neil Gershenfeld (of the MIT media lab - very interesting) work on technologies which make technologies also might hold some promise here

[16:31]  jeanrem Beebe is Offline

[16:31]  You: but not necessarily in the differentiation process

[16:31]  Claryssa Schmidt is Offline

[16:32]  You: All of these Library of Congress videos are very interesting (except virginia)

[16:32]  You: http://www.c-span.org/congress/digitalfuture.asp

[16:32]  You: But the last one in particular in this digital future series with Gershenfeld is fascinating and mind-expanding

[16:32]  Claryssa Schmidt is Online

[16:32]  You: He talks about Internet 0, where more and more objects in our life get connected to the internet

[16:32]  jeanrem Beebe is Online

[16:33]  Meryl Villota is Offline

[16:33]  You: and he talks about digital fabrication, where a tool avaialbe at something like home depot would allow us to make any tool we might envision

[16:33]  You: up periscope

[16:33]  Tori Annenberg is Offline

[16:33]  You: and GErshenfeld is a fascinating lecturer

[16:34]  You: and he also shows a technology which makes another technology

[16:34]  You: code which 'extrudes' the letters MIT :)

[16:34]  You: watch this to open your mind

[16:34]  You: But back to the economy

[16:35]  Luna Bliss is Offline

[16:35]  You: So some companies look for talent, instead of infrastructure, and locate in Silicon Valley to do so

[16:35]  Veeyawn Spoonhammer is Online

[16:36]  You: because S.V. attracts talent from all over the world, partly due to the great universities in the SF Bay ARea and in the US

[16:36]  Veeyawn Spoonhammer is Offline

[16:36]  You: but this means that disadvantaged areas are left out of the benefits of the IT economy

[16:37]  You: So the Production system is articulated internationally

[16:37]  You: And where companies are, overall and more or less - is that 2/3 - International ones - are linked to a multinational system

[16:38]  You: 45% of global trade in 2000 was located in Silicon Valley

[16:38]  Veeyawn Spoonhammer is Online

[16:38]  You: And in 2000 there were 53,600 multinationals w 416000 subsidiaries

[16:38]  You: which is not a lot in terms of the globe

[16:39]  You: But these multinationals, together, are like a big guy in a room

[16:39]  You: And all of the top management aroun the world ihas strongly national identities

[16:40]  You: but when in singapore, for example, they have to fly the singapre flag

[16:40]  You: So in this new production system

[16:41]  You: the end of nationality does not occur, but the globalization of production (multinationalization) does occur

[16:41]  You: Anf Foreign direct investment occurs

[16:41]  Veeyawn Spoonhammer is Offline

[16:41]  You: And it has explore in the last 15-25 years in terms of the rate of growth

[16:41]  You: MERGERS AND ACQUISTIONS

[16:42]  You: are very important here

[16:42]  You: Sony, for example, decides to go into Media

[16:42]  You: So they don't create new Media, but instead buy Hollywood

[16:42]  You: So Mergers and Acquistions is buying companies

[16:43]  You: So to recap

[16:43]  You: 1) Globalization

[16:43]  Emuishere Boa is Online

[16:43]  You: production have been organized around core global companies

[16:43]  You: Now we'll move onto Trade

[16:43]  You: 2 TRADE

[16:43]  Veeyawn Spoonhammer is Online

[16:44]  You: Trade has gone up substantially in relation to GDP - Gross domestic Product

[16:44]  You: e.g. If one takes the proportion of world exports

[16:44]  Diego Ibanez is Offline

[16:45]  You: the percent of trade in theis group moved from 11% in 1913 to 22% in 1998.

[16:45]  Veeyawn Spoonhammer is Offline

[16:45]  You: International trade means more and more coountries depend on what they sell around the globe

[16:45]  Sariah Chihuly is Offline

[16:46]  You: > The Internationalixaton of trade is occurring - onlye a few copaneis export and do not import

[16:46]  You: MOST Export

[16:46]  Veeyawn Spoonhammer is Online

[16:46]  You: Countreis in fast growing - Pacific Asia area - have an explicit export strategy

[16:47]  You: And china exportws much more than they import.

[16:47]  Veeyawn Spoonhammer is Offline

[16:47]  You: The ability to export more than import is called COMPETITIVENESS

[16:47]  Claryssa Schmidt is Offline

[16:48]  You: By producing something BETTER than everybody else, or CHEAPER - this is competitiveness

[16:48]  You: So there is a notion: that world trade is for the good of everybody

[16:48]  You: And this is key to the globalization debate

[16:48]  Veeyawn Spoonhammer is Online

[16:49]  You: if a market is open - says classical economic theory - all will benefit

[16:49]  You: Inefficiencies will go down, and all will be come richer

[16:49]  You: If you compete - e.g. if Brazil replaces US shoemakers - this is good for American consumers -

[16:50]  You: and it increases the Brazilian shoemaking industry - and US shoemakers then learn computer design and sell this to Brazil and profit.

[16:50]  You: If not, FRICTION -

[16:51]  Veeyawn Spoonhammer is Offline

[16:51]  You: So the assumption is that openness of trade benefits everyone - because it expands the market

[16:51]  You: It leads to access to greater labor markets

[16:51]  Teresa Cinquetti is Offline

[16:52]  You: But much of this international trade invovles trade within the multinational system

[16:52]  Veeyawn Spoonhammer is Online

[16:52]  You: And this isn't what you see in the newspaper.

[16:53]  You: What happens if one looks at trade between this co. and this co. and this place and this place

[16:53]  You: Trading services is cheaper now

[16:53]  You: But it's different when trading health and education

[16:53]  You: They are much more place based

[16:54]  You: and less subject to a new global production system

[16:54]  Boston Hutchinson: What about SL?

[16:54]  Boston Hutchinson: And telesurgery?

[16:54]  You: The US has about 74% of its employment in services

[16:55]  Veeyawn Spoonhammer is Offline

[16:55]  You: These are part of teh Information technology revolution, Boston, and this are what are globalized.

[16:55]  You: but services are only 20% of world trade

[16:55]  Andromeda Mesmer: Story in the NY Times about families using teletutors in India, and also using personal assistants there, who will order pizza for a meeting, etc. -- for delivery.

[16:55]  Veeyawn Spoonhammer is Online

[16:55]  You: And most services are not tradable

[16:56]  You: so, Boston, they are part of the about 20% of trade in services world wide

[16:56]  Teresa Cinquetti is Online

[16:56]  You: I'll see if I can find if this 20% world trade of services

[16:56]  You: is increasing, and to what degree.

[16:57]  Veeyawn Spoonhammer is Offline

[16:57]  You: So Multinational Production - leads to - International Trade - leads to higher employment - and higher income which

[16:58]  You: in turn lead to heigher services, which feeds back to higher employment and services

[16:58]  Robyn Proto is Online

[16:58]  You: why does it lead to higher services?

[16:58]  You: If you have higher income and emplyment, there is more money for services

[16:59]  You: So let's take a 7 minute break now

[16:59]  Veeyawn Spoonhammer is Online

[16:59]  Geda Hax: well , what is still a problem to international trades is tax barriers ...some really make whatever trade impossible .

[16:59]  You: And then we'll proceed

[16:59]  You: Yes, Geda - good question -

[16:59]  Geda Hax: it was an affirmative Ap

[16:59]  You: we talked last week about deregulation, liberalization

[17:00]  Geda Hax nods

[17:00]  You: and globalization's increase has been spurred by these

[17:00]  You: But also, these benefits reflect a digital divide

[17:00]  You: so the benefits accord to teh few

[17:00]  Enapa Pennell: And currency exchange is also a barrier. This is an issue with China right now.

[17:01]  You: See you in 7 minutes, and we'll talk about that then, Enapa

[17:01]  Veeyawn Spoonhammer is Offline

[17:01]  Enapa Pennell: Hello all, I didn't want to interrupt earlier

[17:02]  Boston Hutchinson: Hi Enapa

[17:02]  Rain Ninetails: Hi, Enapa!

[17:02]  Andromeda Mesmer: Geda, glad you could come.

[17:03]  Geda Hax: Oh thanks A , was a busy day but yes I am also glad I could make it

[17:06]  Teresa Cinquetti is Offline

[17:07]  Veeyawn Spoonhammer is Online

[17:07]  Teresa Cinquetti is Online

[17:07]  You: Hi Everyone

[17:07]  You: Hi Enapa

[17:07]  Enapa Pennell: hello

[17:07]  Boston Hutchinson: Hi Aphilo

[17:08]  You: To put this multinational production system in perspective, the OECD is the 'country club' of rich nations

[17:08]  Veeyawn Spoonhammer is Offline

[17:09]  You: and, in the early 1990s, 2 developing market countries were admitted

[17:09]  You: then they collapsed

[17:10]  You: Actually the Swedish professor Hans Rosling puts global poverty, the Internet, OECD countries, in fascinating perspective

[17:10]  You: I mentioned this 20 minute or so fascinating TED talk 2 weeks ago

[17:11]  Enapa Pennell: That is a facinating video, I've seen it

[17:11]  You: http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/92

[17:11]  Enapa Pennell: The power of statistics...visuallized

[17:11]  You: You might find this edifying . . .

[17:12]  You: especially to understand OECD coutnries

[17:12]  You: which stands for Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD)

[17:13]  You: And in terms of exports over total exports in manufactining services - the OECD countries make up 80%

[17:13]  You: in volume, not value in services

[17:14]  You: And overall 70% in 2000

[17:14]  You: and oecd countries made up 71% of the world economy

[17:14]  Geda Hax: very interesting commercial fights are held there ....

[17:15]  You: IN terms of value, the heart of the matter is that the bulk of exports is from industrialized countries to industrialized countries

[17:15]  You: It's an assymetical system

[17:15]  You: The trend has favored devleoping countreis, but by them coming from a very low level

[17:15]  You: Yes, Geda

[17:16]  You: in 1965, the share of developing countries in the world market was about 6%

[17:16]  You: And in 2000 it was about 20%

[17:17]  You: See Rosling's video! for a fascinating interpretation - he's a very good lecturer

[17:17]  You: Still, the developed countries make up 80% of globalization

[17:17]  You: but not everywhere to everywhere

[17:17]  Enapa Pennell: Is the GATT process an OECD sponsored activity, or separate?

[17:17]  You: separate, I think

[17:18]  Teresa Cinquetti is Offline

[17:18]  You: So besides a 1) Multinational Production system and 2) dramatic differneces in trade in this new system

[17:19]  You: 3) Science and Technology are extremely important

[17:19]  You: Because they are the source of knowledge and create the capacity to innovate

[17:20]  You: If you have money and no knowledge, in this new economy, you lose money

[17:20]  You: If you have knowledge, you get money

[17:20]  Geda Hax: *just a comment * have you guys ever heard that to sell rice to japan you would have a 700% tax added to your local final price ? ( well , it was 700% some years ago ...) So this is a real block for foreigners to sell rice in japan ..none can handle such tax ...well , kind of understandable since rice is a national subject to that country

[17:21]  You: This is a key aspect of the information technology revoltion, compared to previous industrial revoulitions

[17:21]  Andromeda Mesmer: important part of the culture - rice farming in Japan

[17:21]  You: Yes, Geda, not all countries by any means, subscribe to free market economic theory in totality

[17:22]  You: And identity issues are partly at stake - as in the Japanese example

[17:22]  You: So science and technology are also globalized

[17:22]  You: In principle you have a global system in exchanging documents

[17:22]  You: In terms of technology

[17:23]  You: you have both private and public technology networks

[17:23]  You: And they are global, where labor is imported

[17:23]  You: R&D centers - Research and development centers

[17:23]  You: involve a system of cooperation

[17:24]  You: For example, Bangalore, India, is part of the information deparmtent of some multinational corporations.

[17:24]  Teresa Cinquetti is Online

[17:25]  You: so the system of R& D is absolutely globalized

[17:25]  You: IN the mid 1990s, 10 countries accoutned for 84% of global reserach and development spending.

[17:25]  Gwyneth Llewelyn is Offline

[17:25]  You: And they controlled about 95% of the technology patents.

[17:26]  You: In the US, on the one hand, the American US University system is an extraordinarily open system

[17:26]  Froukje Hoorenbeek is Offline

[17:26]  You: 50% are foreigners

[17:26]  You: However, 50% of foreigners stay in teh US

[17:27]  You: Overall, 90% of technological resources in innovation reserach are located in OECD countries

[17:27]  You: These are huge concentrations in these systems

[17:28]  You: And they connect to even isolated networks

[17:28]  You: Generating knowldege between them is an important aspect of the information revoltuion

[17:29]  You: AnnaLee Saxenian, a Berkeley Professor, who has studied this

[17:29]  You: looked at immigrant entrepreneurs

[17:29]  You: from Taiwan, India, China, etc.

[17:29]  Geda Hax: and yes Ap , you are right , some years ago NL used to buy like almost all brazilian soy ....nor even the most innocent creature in the world would believe that little country would consume all brazilian soy , so brazil loosing lots of money because NL was intermediating Brazil sales , Brazil used to be country people would go to buy their stuff , they didnt work pro-actively due to lack of knowledge ...their products were not sold they were merely bought from whoever had the right contacts

[17:29]  You: IN the 1990s, 30% of new companies were headed by an Indian or Chinese entrepreneur

[17:30]  Geda Hax: hehe ...sorry the typos and some words "eaten"

[17:30]  You: Yes, global markets have a profound effect on the way commodities and education systems are traded and developed

[17:31]  You: Adn the internet rewrites those as well in that educaiton becomes accessible in new ways

[17:31]  You: And we'll look specifically at how trade works in this new system, again, later

[17:31]  Enapa Pennell: Domestic food production is often a sacred cow.

[17:31]  You: for national security issues

[17:32]  You: And yet the green revolution, part of the information technology revolution, loosely

[17:32]  You: has lessened hunger in the world

[17:32]  You: So one of the questions Saxenian was asking

[17:33]  You: is whether a Brain Drain is occurring when countries' brightest students come to OECD countries for university

[17:34]  You: A large number of these high technology oriented people she studied, studied in the US, worked

[17:34]  You: at Silicon Valley high technology compnaies - and started their own companies

[17:34]  You: after getting a green card

[17:34]  You: then would return to their home countrey - about 50% did this

[17:35]  You: So she did not find a brain drain, but rather a brain circulation,

[17:35]  Xirconnia Morphett is Online

[17:35]  You: briding networks of innovation

[17:35]  You: So science and technology is globalized, but in specific ways

[17:35]  You: Last point

[17:35]  You: LABOR

[17:36]  You: is the least globalized

[17:36]  You: In principle, if an economy is global, so should labor be

[17:36]  You: countries still have borders

[17:36]  You: and national feelings

[17:37]  You: including xenphobia - fear of foreigners sometimes expressed in terms of racism

[17:37]  Enapa Pennell: This circluation also allows for a degree of common exchange of the basic concepts on which an information exchange economy is based.

[17:37]  You: Adn in these countries, the notion that people can work any wehre is foreign

[17:37]  You: Very much, Enapa

[17:37]  Geda Hax: I dont think so ....if their countries had better education and a better quality of life they would immigrate , they go their..oh yes , a brain circulation that sooner or later will be converted to benefits to their original countries

[17:38]  Geda Hax: also agree Enapa

[17:38]  You: But national identity limits this, especially vis-a-vis labor

[17:38]  Teresa Cinquetti is Offline

[17:38]  You: and creates barriers for labor

[17:39]  You: and this phenomenon allows some countries to be able to lift barriers for some

[17:39]  You: i.e. those who will accept lower working conditions

[17:39]  Annette Paster is Online

[17:39]  Emuishere Boa is Offline

[17:39]  You: Flow is relatively controlled,

[17:39]  Breen Mathy is Online

[17:39]  You: then is opened

[17:39]  You: special quotas to let people immigrate

[17:39]  Enapa Pennell: a migratory labor force is unusual, usually the manufacturing or service goes to the labor pool, not t vice-versa.

[17:40]  You: Take the US for example

[17:40]  You: The labor market for highly skilled individuals is absolutely globalized

[17:40]  You: i.e. semi global

[17:40]  Daisyblue Hefferman is Offline

[17:40]  You: Professional skills are globalized

[17:41]  You: Take sports, and assissins, for example

[17:41]  Robyn Proto is Offline

[17:41]  Enapa Pennell: agree, speciallized trades and expertise are shuffled about as needed.

[17:41]  You: But for the low skilled

[17:41]  You: there are 160 million migrant labor force, hwich are not global

[17:42]  You: If you compare that to 1.4 billion labor force

[17:42]  Gwyneth Llewelyn is Online

[17:42]  You: that's a small portion

[17:42]  You: Foreign immigrants in Europe

[17:42]  You: are rapidly increasing

[17:42]  Geda Hax: they (low skilled ) dont even have jobs in their own countries

[17:42]  You: and immigration is concentrated in a few countreis

[17:43]  Robyn Proto is Online

[17:43]  You: 1/3 of migrants in the world are located in one region in the world

[17:43]  You: in Africa, where there is always someone pooer

[17:43]  You: So

[17:44]  You: that's one set of arguments about how the global economy has developed

[17:44]  You: If you're interested in a chapter about this by long time Berkeley Professor Manuel Castells,

[17:45]  You: I can e-mail you informaiton - let me know by instant message

[17:45]  You: Question, observations, thoughts?

[17:45]  You: Hello Breen

[17:45]  Tori Annenberg is Online

[17:46]  You: We'll start looking at the globalization of finance soon

[17:46]  You: this is the most important aspect of the capitalist economy

[17:46]  You: because it's about capital

[17:46]  You: If capital is global, the economy is global

[17:47]  You: Geda - I see you typing

[17:47]  You: Q?

[17:47]  Geda Hax: yes ....finance people , they are THE gate keepers ......nothing much I am be crashing again

[17:48]  Geda Hax: *I might

[17:48]  You: So as this is where we get into another signifcant topic, and we're getting close to 9, when I have to move from where I am

[17:48]  Perry Proudhon is Online

[17:48]  You: I'll wait to talk about GLOBALIZATION AND FINANCE next week.

[17:49]  You: Thoughts about avatars with agency? or the multinational production system signficantly influenced by science, technology and teh generation of knowledge?

[17:50]  You: You might be inerested in http://brainfingers.com

[17:51]  You: There is at least one interesting video on this web site

[17:51]  Enapa Pennell: So, it sounds like a portion of the premise is that the educated elite, their circulation and the domestic labor pools from which they emerge are the glue which binds this global economy?

[17:51]  Boston Hutchinson: I'd guess that avatars with agency are something we will first encounter as a commercial product--i.e. Apple or Google or somebody will sell them

[17:51]  Barbie Starr is Offline

[17:51]  You: The technology allows one to control a cursor on a computer screen without a mouse, and only with a headband

[17:51]  Andromeda Mesmer: I think avatars with agency are something like a cross between a secretary who reminds you about appointments, and your own personal research assistant.

[17:51]  You: electircal, minute eye movement, and 'brainwaves' - which aren't yet well understood

[17:52]  You: Why not connect that to an avatar?

[17:52]  You: Yes, Boston, but also folks in open source may just stumble upon them, through innovation

[17:53]  You: Yes, Enapa,

[17:53]  Andromeda Mesmer: Aphilo, where is the most open source work being done?

[17:53]  Enapa Pennell: I have a friend with severe trauma to her nervous system. No higher lever thinking skill imparment. Such tools would be very useful.

[17:53]  Emuishere Boa is Online

[17:53]  You: the IT revolution shaped knowledge production as key to it, and most labor is not mobile

[17:54]  You: it's a signficant new dynamic

[17:54]  You: Taht may be a first step, A

[17:54]  You: Robots might be an example

[17:55]  You: There are deep historical roots

[17:55]  You: Andromeda in most Universities

[17:55]  Boston Hutchinson: I agree with Andromeda about what they might do. So a really well-designed mass market product might be the most effective way to introduce them. Like an iPhone that's smart.

[17:55]  You: Richard Stallman, Yochai Benkler (Wealth of Networks), Linux Torvalds

[17:56]  Boston Hutchinson: http://www.irobot.com/sp.cfm?pageid=338

[17:56]  You: so many people who helped shape this revolution are part of the fabric

[17:56]  Boston Hutchinson: another step toward an avatar product

[17:57]  You: and it takes shape in different ways, but I don't see it as geographically rooted, especially as waht it gave rise to - cyberspace- is by definition significantly virtual

[17:57]  Andromeda Mesmer: I just had an interesting idea -- your personal assistant avatar might interact with other people's personal assistant avatars, exchange information, gossip ...

[17:58]  You: Yes, E, brainfingers could be very helpful - I know Andrew Junker, who designed brainfingers, and he has tested it with Stephen Hawking at Cambridge, and lots of others

[17:58]  You: But your friend probably knows about some of this.

[17:58]  Enapa Pennell: yes, a PA (personal assistant) who can sift though email and separate junk from jem would be very useful.

[17:59]  You: I'm looking for a leap with avatars - a thought outside the box, that might make give them agency, or make them sentient

[17:59]  You: Thanks, Boston, for the link

[17:59]  Enapa Pennell: complex decision making is an important step along that road.

[17:59]  Boston Hutchinson: I think sentience is a few years (or decades) away.

[17:59]  You: Yes, A, and perhaps starting in SL? or realted virtual world?

[18:00]  You: a few :) probably

[18:00]  You: well, let's call it quits now

[18:00]  You: Berners-Lee and http and html sahping the web is an example.

[18:01]  You: ... of someone who produced a leap by innovating, and then posting it the web, creating teh www almost singlehandedly

[18:01]  Boston Hutchinson: If you think about the "packaging" of this "avatar", I wonder if you'd talk to your avatar on your iPhone or rather if you iPhone would BE the avatar.

[18:01]  You: interesting convergence, Boston

[18:01]  Boston Hutchinson: How does the product evolve from the metaphor?

[18:02]  You: which is how Tim Berners-Lee describes shaping html and http

[18:02]  Tatiana Igaly is Online

[18:02]  You: he just put some things together in novel ways

[18:02]  Boston Hutchinson: Imagine a virtual pet, say a Furby, that's smart and connected to the web.

[18:02]  You: often products start with ideas or metaphors

[18:02]  You: and as brainstorms

[18:03]  Daisyblue Hefferman is Online

[18:03]  Boston Hutchinson: Children might learn from an early age to live with agents, avatars.

[18:03]  You: How could we make it seem like an avatar had agency

[18:03]  You: Someone once mentioned drone avatars in SL, but I haven't ever seen any

[18:04]  Andromeda Mesmer: Yes, I can see a furby as a personal assistant -- or any other shape creature.

[18:04]  You: Yes, children certainly invest life in pet animals

[18:04]  Boston Hutchinson: So you're not sending your virtual self out into the virtual world. Instead, your sending your virtual pet.

[18:04]  You: Yes, Boston

[18:04]  You have offered friendship to Enapa Pennell

[18:05]  Boston Hutchinson: The level of intelligence that can be programmed might make this workable soon. I can't see credible representations of ourselves running on automatic...

[18:05]  Andromeda Mesmer: you might have several different appearing personal assistants, depending on the job they have to do or the information they have to find -- whether they interact with himans or not.

[18:05]  Enapa Pennell: or a Nani-bot. A teaching assistant who guides infants along desired developmental paths.

[18:05]  Enapa Pennell: with infinite patience

[18:05]  Enapa Pennell is Online

[18:05]  You: I can't either, Boston, but I'm amused by thinking of conversing intelligently with my avatar

[18:06]  You: Yes, A

[18:06]  You: Well, I bid you good night.

[18:06]  You: Let's talk about this next week as well globalization and finance

[18:06]  Boston Hutchinson: Good night Aphilo. Thanks for a very interesting class!

[18:07]  Geda Hax: as long as it has total security to have my personal information

[18:07]  Andromeda Mesmer: Good night Aphilo

[18:07]  Enapa Pennell: Thanks, very interesting and thoughtful

[18:07]  Diego Ibanez is Online

[18:07]  Geda Hax: Good Night Ap .

[18:07]  You: I'll post this transcript to the web at http://socinfotech.pbwiki.com

[18:07]  Breen Mathy: goodnight

[18:07]  Boston Hutchinson: Great discussion, everybody!

[18:07]  You: Thanks for coming

[18:07]  Breen Mathy: thanks you Aphilo

[18:07]  Tatiana Igaly is Offline

[18:07]  Geda Hax: Thank you Aphilo , see you next wed ;)

[18:07]  You: Yes, thanks for the discussion

http://socinfotech.pbwiki.com