Society and Information Technology in Second Life

Wednesdays, January 9 - July 30, 2008, 4-6, SLT/PT, 7-9 pm ET

on Berkman island in Second Life - http://slurl.com/secondlife/Berkman/114/70/25

 Course homepage - http://socinfotech.pbwiki.com

 

Instructor: Scott MacLeod (not on Harvard's faculty) = Aphilo Aarde (in Second Life)

http://scottmacleod.com/papers.htm

 

 June 11 2008 Soc and Info Tech class transcript

 

[16:00]  Boston Hutchinson is Online

[16:00]  You: Hello Barrington!

[16:00]  Barrington John: hello Aphilo! :)

[16:01]  Barrington John: have I got the right place for a discussion?

[16:01]  Boston Hutchinson: Hi Aphilo

[16:01]  You: Yes , welcome

[16:01]  You: Hi Boston!

[16:01]  Barrington John: ah, that makes a change - thanks :)

[16:01]  Boston Hutchinson: Hi Barrington

[16:01]  You: Hi Sara

[16:01]  Barrington John: hi Boston

[16:01]  Sonja Strom is Online

[16:02]  You: Hello Andromeda

[16:02]  Boston Hutchinson: Hi Sara

[16:02]  Boston Hutchinson: Hi Andromeda

[16:02]  sara Gartenberg: hi barrington, boston

[16:02]  Luciftias Neurocam is Online

[16:02]  Barrington John: hi, Andromeda

[16:02]  Barrington John: and Sara

[16:02]  sara Gartenberg: hii andromeda

[16:02]  You: Welcome to Society and Information Technology

[16:03]  You: http://socinfotech.pbwiki.com

[16:03]  Luciftias Neurocam is Offline

[16:03]  You: Today I'd like to continue to examine the possibility of a global university, and how we might envision structuring such a development.

[16:04]  You: Hi Skagen

[16:04]  Skagen Vita: hi

[16:04]  You: Your participation is prized, as this is very much an envisioning process

[16:05]  You: that can take a variety of possible directions

[16:05]  Andromeda Mesmer: Hi everybody - I was stuck in the teleport system -- could hear the keyboards clacking, but only saw a black field.

[16:05]  You: Hi rain

[16:05]  You: Glad you made it

[16:05]  Morrhys Graysmark is Online

[16:05]  Claryssa Schmidt is Online

[16:06]  You: This idea emerges partly in and around the Berkman @ 10 anniversary celebration

[16:06]  You: but also independently - I've posted transcripts here - http://socinfotech.pbwiki.com

[16:06]  You: from the last 2-3 classes when we've explored this

[16:06]  You: Hi Claryssa

[16:06]  You decline ::CONTACT:: 3.1  on ::SATURN:: from A group member named Sonja Strom.

[16:06]  Claryssa Schmidt: hi

[16:07]  Tarek String is Offline

[16:07]  You: So what I'd like to examine this evening is how we might structure a

[16:07]  You: Global, degree-granting, free, open, virtual-world University, with Harvard as a key player

[16:08]  You: particularly in terms of the information technologies that make such a conception possible

[16:08]  You: in ways that weren't before.

[16:08]  Sonja Strom is Offline

[16:08]  You: I know of no global universities that exist now.

[16:08]  You: Does anyone?

[16:08]  Boston Hutchinson: I think there are some other efforts.

[16:09]  Boston Hutchinson: I read about something in the UK

[16:09]  You: Harvard and many universities in the US have many foreign students, but they aren't global in a degree granting sense.

[16:09]  You: Yes, Boston - here's one link

[16:09]  Barrington John is from the UK, and isn't familiar with anything like that

[16:09]  You: http://openlearn.open.ac.uk/

[16:09]  Draxtor Despres is Online

[16:09]  You: A friend at Oxford just sent me that link

[16:09]  You: but it isn't degree granting

[16:10]  You: And, iTunes University has many lectures, but is still a misnomer, also in the degree granting sense.

[16:10]  Barrington John: ah, the Open University - good "place" - I didn't know they had a programme like this

[16:10]  You: iTunes does provide a structure, however

[16:11]  You: Yes, Open University is a great idea . . .

[16:11]  You: The structures I'm most interested in at present include those that might

[16:11]  You: arise from wikipedia, and Global Voices

[16:11]  sara Gartenberg: yes, there is also open university in japan

[16:12]  You: but before we start to discuss those, let me recap a little

[16:12]  You: Sara, can you share a URL with us, please

[16:12]  sara Gartenberg: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_University_of_Japan

[16:12]  You: For this envisioning process, I'm interested in exploring

[16:13]  You: the following - Develop an online, free, degree-granting, global university, with Harvard as a key player, at the undergraduate and graduate levels

[16:13]  You: possibly by -

[16:13]  You: starting with 4 undergraduate for-credit courses in the fall of 2008 or the spring of 2009, listed in the Harvard catalog, as well as a course at Harvard Law School.

[16:14]  You: : then develop these into degree programs. Develop dedicated funding and an endowment for this, invested in socially conscious funds

[16:14]  You: and continue this conversation in real time through this emergent, open University and information technologies about these technologies

[16:14]  You: and to do so, let individuals and groups build virtual worlds in Open Sim and Second Life, which then connect as parts of this developing University, to continue this conversation.

[16:15]  You: One way to structure such a university would be to engage a kind of

[16:15]  You: http://globalvoices.org

[16:15]  You: model

[16:15]  You: which is blog based, and where

[16:15]  You: editors in something like 100 countries

[16:16]  Sonja Strom is Online

[16:16]  You: aggregate blogger's points of views

[16:16]  You: aggregate blogger's points of views

[16:16]  Champler Snook is Offline

[16:16]  You: to create a relatively effortless series of writings about what is happening on the street

[16:16]  You: and from the perspectives of individuals

[16:17]  You: One advantage is that

[16:17]  You: editors in different countries act as aggregators for content, highlighting key bloggers

[16:17]  You: but anyone can create a new blog

[16:18]  You: As a model for a global university, the editors, on a global basis - all 200 or so countries

[16:18]  You: might become like deans

[16:18]  You: who then help to select and form course content . . .

[16:18]  You: Remember, in SL, we all can type at once -

[16:19]  You: and doing so enriches the conversation (although I will stay focused on what I've prepared, as well)

[16:19]  You: Typing all at once creates a kind of brainstorming process that can be edifying

[16:19]  You: Another advantage of this approach

[16:20]  Barrington John: it's certainly a very far-reaching concept, and pretty noble at that

[16:20]  You: would be that instructors could become course content producers as they want

[16:20]  You: so that people could be self-selecting

[16:20]  Barrington John: what about the qualifications required for the instructors?

[16:20]  You: and such a model includes multi-country IT open, content-exchange model

[16:20]  You: Yes, Barrington

[16:21]  You: As I see it, although the above model appeals for its openness

[16:21]  You: I'd like to envision an emergence of courses from Harvard and MIT, using MIT Open Course Ware as a standard,

[16:21]  Boston Hutchinson: THere might be some benefit to collaboration on course content, particularly to collaboration in the production of virtual world-specific features.

[16:22]  You: say, for the first 5 years, and, at first, seeek instructors that were Harvard and MIT post docs, that would get paid competitively

[16:22]  You decline Cecilia's at Muse Isle (59, 162, 28) from A group member named JenzZa Misfit.

[16:22]  Barrington John nods

[16:23]  You: Yes, Boston -that's a very interesting idea which IT makes possible in rich ways

[16:23]  Barrington John: that sounds sensible to me, and it's going to be one of the first questions on most potential students' minds - "just how good *are* these guys?"

[16:23]  You: And the Global Voices model, as I mentioned, does make possible

[16:24]  You: an international model, that is country and individual centric

[16:24]  SamBivalent Spork is Offline

[16:24]  You: We might want to envision other possibilities to country and individual centrism . . .

[16:24]  Andromeda Mesmer: Aphilo, the other advantage of typing, as i mentioned before, is that people with hearing problems, or with hard-to-understand accents, will be able to participate fully in such classes.

[16:25]  You: Yes, Barrington, with Harvard and MIT post docs, and potentially, to start for degree-granting purposes particularly,

[16:25]  You: engaging Harvard's structure would be very advantageous

[16:25]  Barrington John nods

[16:25]  Sonja Strom is Offline

[16:26]  You: Yes, Andromeda, SL and virtual worlds do open many opportunities for

[16:26]  You: disabilities - in remarkable ways

[16:27]  Barrington John: Do you envisage a student being able to study to, say, degree level, without the requirement to attend any "real-world" events - in other words, courses that are 100% home-based?

[16:27]  You: I also think engaging the best Universities around the world, for selection of 'editors' in a Global Voices sense, would help make possible a very far-reaching university

[16:28]  Andromeda Mesmer: I recall now -- there is or was, a Linden employee who has Aspergers -- but online, she comes across as a very charming and helpful person, and nobody can tell of any of her problems -- as they could, in RL. The disabled (whatever it is) can interact with others quite normally - it is an exciting inspiring process for them.

[16:28]  You: I think that should be one key direction for this University -

[16:28]  You: 1 over time, say a 20-50 year horizon - completely independent of people

[16:28]  You: and 2 also richly engaged with academics, especially those that valorize the conversation between minds as a key aspect of learning

[16:29]  You: And perhaps avatars that pass the Turing Test, may eventually make such conversation with bots fascinating and possible - although I 'm a little skeptical

[16:29]  You: :) A

[16:29]  Andromeda Mesmer: Not this year, Aphilo ;)

[16:30]  Diego Ibanez is Online

[16:30]  You: I'd also like to explore Wikipedia as a complementary model

[16:30]  Barrington John: that's a big goal!

[16:30]  You: to Global Voices

[16:30]  You: a lot has happened in the IT revolution that is remarkable, unplanned, . . .

[16:31]  You: the advantages of the a Wikipedia model, for envisioning purposes

[16:31]  You: is that is offers a set of rules for adding material, that have developed with time and in response to use, as model for global virtual University

[16:32]  You: In the wikipedia model,

[16:32]  You: vis-a-vis course content, and instructions - anyone can add, or edit, and history is saved

[16:33]  You: and it could lead to setting

[16:33]  Barrington John: and yet Wiki contributors can be anyone - there's no screening process, as I understand it?

[16:33]  You: up a structure that would then be fairly comprehensive, and extensible, that would engage MIT’s open course ware, to start, as a kind of standard setting

[16:34]  Boston Hutchinson: The existence of Google and Wikipedia raises some questions about the nature of knowledge aquired through education; specifically, if you can look up anything you need to know instantly, what does it mean to be educated?

[16:34]  You: Yes, there are moderators, who try to make 'real' the guidelines, which are very open, in general

[16:34]  You: Is the word 'moderator' the correct one for wikipedia?

[16:34]  Barrington John: I've no idea

[16:35]  You: To start, Boston, I'd reply pragmatically by engaging the MIT OCW as a standard, and definition for what education is

[16:36]  You: "moderators" in Wikipedia have rejected only one entry out of many, that I've made - on "Democracy School"

[16:36]  Boston Hutchinson: If degrees are based on proficiency in a field, should testing be done with full web access?

[16:36]  You: And another great advantage of the Wikipedia model

[16:37]  You: is that it allows for

[16:37]  Boston Hutchinson: When I was a student, slide rules were allowed in exams. Later, calculators were allowed. Are PCs with Internet access allowed now? Why not?

[16:38]  You: keeping a global, virtual University’s courses as free, open, useful, (and even offering "harmonizing" ‘course ware’ - relaxation response, yoga, watsu:)

[16:38]  Morrhys Graysmark is Offline

[16:38]  You: Not yet, but they are in paper writing courses - and obviously, courseware would have to be constructed with this and other related developments in mind

[16:39]  Andromeda Mesmer: There are already those "harmonizing courses" in SL now.

[16:39]  You: Yes . . .

[16:39]  You: In the Global Voices / Wikipedia model paradigm

[16:40]  You: I see possible tensions between editors (global voices) and moderators (wikipedia)

[16:40]  Diego Ibanez is Offline

[16:40]  DJWeyayman Howlett is Offline

[16:40]  Andromeda Mesmer: Nother possible adjunct - at the U of Toronto, there is free help at certain times, for students who are taking a course but need extra help, or have a deficient background -- say, in essay writing or trigonometry ..

[16:40]  You: over what course content to include, at first, although if one started in the first 5 years with Harvard and MIT post docs only

[16:41]  You: one might in the 2nd 5 years become richly inclusive

[16:41]  DJWeyayman Howlett is Online

[16:42]  You: Yes, full professors, too, could teach and collaboratively - and graduate student instructors would have plenty of roles, as well . . .

[16:42]  You: but this model does privilege an existing academic paradigm, and that might come in tension with some of the goals of an open University

[16:43]  You: athough it would support the degree granting goals of this global, virtual world university

[16:43]  You: So,

[16:44]  You: for degree-granting purposes, and if Harvard is a key player, existing structures, with a 400 year history, shape a pattern that already produces very high qualities of knowledge production and generation

[16:44]  You: The first part (5 years) of this project could involve just inviting post-docs from Harvard and MIT, for example, to be instructors, but gradually opening this to anyone who wanted to teach, to recapitulate

[16:44]  Barrington John: and not to mention a very high existing profile in the academic world

[16:45]  You: And the criteria for instructor selection could be a Ph. D. or other appropriate terminal degree - for teaching in a degree-granting program, but I’d like this to be more open . . .

[16:46]  Boston Hutchinson: What would happen if professors and departments and groups of students competed for accreditation and the right to include their programs in the degree-granting mechanism of the virtual university or even of RL universities? A kind of evolutionary model, which would be very open, but not guarantee success.

[16:46]  You: Yes, Barrington, but hopefully this represents great minds, who enjoy conversing about their subject in exciting ways . . .

[16:46]  Andromeda Mesmer: About the degrees -- I know of one very bright guy with a Master's in math -- who was quite innovative in teaching a calculus course -- but the U of Toronto got rid of him because he had no Ph.D ...

[16:46]  You: You highlight an interesting possibility, Boston . . .

[16:47]  You: As I see the possibility of a global University, a key aspect is providing access to course content and knowledge generation to people in developing countries and in ways that they didn't have access before,

[16:47]  Andromeda Mesmer: Boston - another possibility is to have some minimum requirements -- then -- let everbody teach who wants to.

[16:48]  Andromeda Mesmer: Maybe also have reviews of the courses -- like there are book reviews now.

[16:48]  You: so while competition as part of the process makes sense - why not even just add classes virtually that are already taking place at Harvard or MIT

[16:49]  You: so that competition would have been part of the process, and a very wide selection of courses could then be offered

[16:49]  Andromeda Mesmer: There could be courses that are very close to those offered in RL classes -- but there could also be lots of others.

[16:49]  You: Yes, Andromeda - I think I'm envisioning both - but let's explore making access to education in the developing world

[16:50]  You: possible, a little further

[16:50]  You: And to do this, I've formulated a draft of a mission, which I'd very much like to get each and everyon e of your feedback on

[16:51]  You: and perhaps for you to construct a mission too

[16:51]  You: Before I write the mission draft here,

[16:51]  You: why don't you take the opportunity to write one . . .

[16:52]  Andromeda Mesmer: :) Mission statement - to boldly go where no one has gone before ...

[16:52]  You: :)

[16:52]  Boston Hutchinson: Incorporation of Open Courseware and other RL material into a class would be typical, I expect, like the traditional use of textbooks, but inclusion of the material doesn't guarantee proficiency of the students after the course, so there still needs to be some testing process involved in getting credits toward degrees.

[16:52]  Spider Mycron is Offline

[16:52]  You: Yes, very interesting, Boston

[16:52]  You: Mission ideas, first, though?

[16:52]  You: Here's a possible one - To provide a global, degree-granting, highest-quality, free, open University, with Harvard University as a key player, through which anyone in the world can learn what they want

[16:53]  You: Now let's rewrite it . . .

[16:53]  You: :)

[16:53]  You: And as a key part of this

[16:53]  Boston Hutchinson: I wonder if the creation of a university by an evolutionary process might itself be one of the goals.

[16:53]  You: - A key part of this University would involve identifying groups especially in the developing world, who might benefit from a global, degree-granting, open, free University, and providing them with access, using One Laptop Per Child, and developments from this.

[16:54]  Andromeda Mesmer: Boston -- I think it evolves -- can't help but evolve.

[16:54]  You: Yes, Boston - very much - I also touched on this above vis-a-vis the wikipedia model, whose guidelines have emerged over time, with opennes as central...

[16:54]  You: Perhaps just like the IT revolution itself . . .

[16:55]  You: In identifying keep groups and individuals around the world

[16:56]  You: who would benefit from this is central - and I think it should be - and perhaps by engaging an already existing (albeit possbily marginal school system, that may reflect cultural approaches to learning and challenges)

[16:57]  You: So, think about a mission as we take a break until about 10 minutes past the hour

[16:58]  Boston Hutchinson: Building a community of colleages globally, the way Harvard and others tend to educate future world leaders, but partially in reverse,so that the knowledge flows in multiple directions, and creates a global network of graduates.

[16:58]  You: After the break, we'll return to the mission, and what would make this a global University

[16:58]  You: among other things,

[16:58]  You: as well as your thoughts and questions, and envisionings

[16:59]  Andromeda Mesmer: How long is the break this time, Aphilo?

[16:59]  You: YES, Boston . . . such a global University would become a very far-reaching networking tool - on a distributed basis

[16:59]  You: until 10 minutes past the hour - about 10 minutes

[17:00]  You: See you soon . . .I'll post the transcript from the first half of class

[17:00]  You: Please keep talking :)

[17:02]  Andromeda Mesmer: I'll be back in a few minutes.

[17:02]  Barrington John: likewise - AFK for a few

[17:03]  Cindy Ecksol is Online

[17:06]  Claryssa Schmidt is Offline

[17:09]  You: Hello All,

[17:09]  You: I've posted the transcript here -

[17:09]  You: http://socinfotech.pbwiki.com/June-11-2008-Soc-and-Info-Tech-class-transcript

[17:10]  You: Let's both examine and recap each aspect of a

[17:10]  You: global, degree-granting, free, open, university, with Harvard as a key player

[17:11]  Dnate Mars is Offline

[17:11]  Spider Mycron is Online

[17:11]  You: which, as a virtual world, might converge

[17:11]  You: Combining Google Earth, Second Life and Open Sim, and Croquet, MIT OCW, ITunes, University, et al . . .

[17:12]  You: For a global University,

[17:12]  You: I envision this being as internet-centric as possible

[17:12]  You: at first

[17:12]  You: so that as many facets of the learning process are available online

[17:13]  You: Laboratories, for hard sciences, would get modeled in 3-d virtual worlds

[17:13]  You: Croquet, which is designed by and for academics

[17:13]  Imper Fegte is Online

[17:13]  Michele Mrigesh is Offline

[17:13]  You: may have the initial codings oriented toward academic possibilities, than, say, SL

[17:14]  You: When Boston and visited this virtual world,

[17:14]  You: we both went under the sea, and into a solar system

[17:14]  You: The most popular course in MIT's Open Course War

[17:14]  Aidan Aquacade is Offline

[17:15]  Claryssa Schmidt is Online

[17:15]  You: http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/web/home/home/index.htm

[17:15]  Aidan Aquacade is Online

[17:15]  You: is Physics 1

[17:15]  Imper Fegte is Offline

[17:15]  You: Classical Mechanics -

[17:15]  You: http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/Physics/8-01Physics-IFall1999/CourseHome/index.htm

[17:16]  Dnate Mars is Online

[17:16]  You: Look at the picture on this web page - something like this could not only be streamed into Second Life in video

[17:16]  You: but, also richly modeled, so that every avatar had this experience, and might even program

[17:16]  You: such 'experiential' learning

[17:17]  You: But after an internet-centric beginning to a global University

[17:18]  You: ...., complementing existing physical plant possibilities, as well as courses, on the ground, in all 200 or so countries

[17:18]  You: has merit

[17:18]  Barrington John: that sounds pretty exciting

[17:19]  You: Complementing existing educational systems on the ground over time has some merit, although remaining internet-centric does too

[17:19]  You: Complementing existing educational systems on the ground over time has some merit, although remaining internet-centric does too

[17:19]  You: Hi Cindy

[17:19]  Cindy Ecksol: hey, aphilo!

[17:19]  Aidan Aquacade is Offline

[17:19]  You: In this envisioning process, I would Aim to remain Internet-centric, and to provide as rich and as enjoyable a learning experience, as the most fun experiences you have had learning, both with and without humans – (so that, for example, in 1000 years, the courses carry on themselves, regardless of people, and continue to be very engaging).

[17:20]  You: I think people find that MIT Physics 1 - Classical Mechanics course very enjoyable

[17:20]  Aidan Aquacade is Online

[17:20]  Cindy Ecksol is thinking that courses without humans 1000 years from now is.....spooky!!

[17:21]  You: http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/Physics/8-01Physics-IFall1999/CourseHome/index.htm

[17:21]  You: for example

[17:21]  You: To keep such a university globally -centric

[17:22]  You: the use of the

[17:22]  You: Use the best developing information technologies, including, as an example, avatar instructors that pass the Turing test, as they develop

[17:22]  You: Also to focus its global-ness, as we touched on before,

[17:23]  Boston Hutchinson: How do we know that computers will want to teach courses, once they've passed the Turing Test?

[17:23]  You: the Global Voices editor as dean model might make this University might allow it to be very inclusive of bloggers as instructors and students

[17:23]  Cindy Ecksol: well, because they will be required to obey the Three Laws of Robotics, Boston :-)

[17:23]  Andromeda Mesmer: Well, there is the question of motivation.

[17:24]  You: We'll have to see, Boston . . .

[17:24]  You: which are, Cindy

[17:24]  Cindy Ecksol: ah!

[17:24]  Andromeda Mesmer: Do they have motivation to do something different?

[17:24]  You: Motivation on whose part, Andromeda?

[17:24]  Cindy Ecksol: 1. A robot may not harm a human or thru inaction allow a human to come to harm

[17:24]  You: The bots?

[17:24]  You: thnx

[17:24]  Andromeda Mesmer: The avatar instructors that have passed the Turing test.

[17:24]  Cindy Ecksol: 2. a robot must obey all orders given to it as long as they do not conflict with the first law

[17:24]  Boston Hutchinson: Wouldn't they flunk the test if they always obeyed the laws, Cindy? ;)

[17:25]  You: To start this global University,

[17:25]  Cindy Ecksol: 3. a robot must preserve its own existence as long as doing so does not conflict with the first two laws

[17:25]  You: Network, to start, with the best Universities in all 200 or so countries, to provide possible “deans,” but also let GV bloggers, or related folks, choose such ‘Deans’ –

[17:25]  You: yes, Cindy

[17:25]  Cindy Ecksol: hmmmm....you need to read more Isaac Asimov, Boston :-)

[17:25]  You: which, in particular, Cindy?

[17:26]  Andromeda Mesmer: I Robot

[17:26]  You: (but pick another name for this role of dean, perhaps, to shape an information technological approach to lessen the significance of authority).

[17:26]  Cindy Ecksol: Asimov's various robot stories and novels -- they all deal with the interaction between humans and robots who obey these laws....or seem not to :-)

[17:27]  You: Could we make the role of deans or their equivalent, even unnecessary ?

[17:27]  You: And to make this University richly global

[17:27]  Andromeda Mesmer: One of my professors was not very respectful of deans, because he considered that they did lots of paper pushing, and that was of no interest to him whatsoever :)

[17:27]  You: Make such course material available, empathically, to the most remote and 'obscure' places available

[17:28]  You: The beauty of both Global Voices and Wikipedia, both of which were used as key examples at the Berkman Center's 10th anniversary of

[17:28]  You: information technology's possibilities,

[17:29]  Cindy Ecksol: well, the role of a dean is really to organize the learning process. that function could certainly be automated -- mostly! human input would still be required for some things. example: sequencing of courses, deciding where overlapping course content fits, etc.

[17:29]  You: is that the technologies make possible a group process, that replaces, to a very significant degree, roles of authority

[17:30]  You: In a way, the information technologies themselves, become kinds of 'deans' as it were

[17:30]  You: Yes, Cindy

[17:30]  You: perhaps, but even that might become wikified, - perhaps we can think of already existing examples

[17:30]  You: Hello Erka

[17:31]  Erka Vacirca: Hiya

[17:31]  You: Whether it be tcp / ip routing of packets, as an example, of a kind of scheduling

[17:31]  Barrington John: is it maybe a little early to spend too much time thinking about machines becoming deans, for example?

[17:31]  You: or some other forms

[17:31]  Cindy Ecksol: hmmmm...I think someone (human) will always have to make the final decision in some areas. wiki is good for collecting and organizing information, but humans are still best at noticing patterns and making decisions

[17:32]  Curious George is Online

[17:32]  You: Perahps, Barrington, but in this class, focusing on structure, the examples of Global Voices and Wikipedia

[17:32]  DJWeyayman Howlett is Offline

[17:32]  Cindy Ecksol: also a process that is too "open" can become unable to move forward efficiently. we see that a lot in the Confederation of Democratic Simulatiors

[17:33]  You: as ways to use information technologies to organize such an entity, does have a little bearing on questions of bureaucracy and the now very human institution of the University

[17:33]  You: Yes, Cindy . . . please do suggest other possible approaches and existing information Technologies,

[17:33]  Joe Petrel is Online

[17:33]  You: but wikipedia and global voices are compelling to me

[17:34]  Cindy Ecksol: both are good -- my point is that they are not sufficient

[17:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn is Offline

[17:34]  You: And Jimmy Wales, and Ethan Zuckerman and Rebecca Mackinnon, are not very dean like

[17:34]  You: Perhaps,

[17:35]  You: As I mentioned before, I've posted the transcript from the first half of the class here -

[17:35]  You: http://socinfotech.pbwiki.com/June-11-2008-Soc-and-Info-Tech-class-transcript

[17:35]  Cindy Ecksol: lol! I guess it depends on how you define "dean-like" :-)

[17:35]  Joe Petrel is Offline

[17:35]  You: To make this University very global -

[17:35]  You: Make such course material available, empathically, to the most obscure places available

[17:35]  You: , to recap

[17:36]  You: And

[17:36]  Boston Hutchinson: I wonder if there is a structure, not Wikipedia, but inspired by it, that might facilitate the organizational process.

[17:36]  You: Let individuals and people choose this Univerisity simply by making the information available – and when people want it . . . find those who are interested primarily

[17:36]  You: exactly, Boston

[17:37]  You: and one which, in the spirit of the Information TEchnology revolution, we might have up and running by next week

[17:38]  Cindy Ecksol: well, the "openness" concept is fine.....but in order to qualify for jobs certain skills/certifications will be required. that is where the "dean" role comes in -- someone has to make decisions about course sequencing, content, etc. so that qualifications can be met, no?

[17:38]  You: a nascent wiki cum global voices, with schedule, posssibility for suggestions, and engaging MIT OCW

[17:38]  Cindy Ecksol: one can't just pick out a random sequence of courses....

[17:38]  You: Yes, Cindy, scan the first half of the class's transcript

[17:38]  Cindy Ecksol: ok...will do.

[17:39]  Boston Hutchinson: It leads me back to the thought that aspects of the university might be allowed to evolve, by a process of selection, where the selection is done by members of the communities involved--students, accreditors and degree granters, financial managers, etc.

[17:39]  You: So, these aspects above are important in my view for a global University

[17:39]  DJWeyayman Howlett is Online

[17:40]  Curious George is Offline

[17:40]  You: Yes, Boston, and the wiki / gv approach seems like a very appropriate starting point for this evolution, for we would save the history . . .

[17:40]  Boston Hutchinson: there's a similarity...

[17:41]  You: In terms of degree-granting

[17:41]  You: Helpful to have Harvard’s School’s cooperation, or MIT’s, and this might be a most interesting challenge

[17:41]  Spider Mycron is Offline

[17:42]  You: Because Harvard's Schools are conservative

[17:42]  You: and even though we've outlined beginning with Harvard instructors / post docs, and teaching Harvard undergrads

[17:42]  Andromeda Mesmer: The conservatism of old institutions can be overcome -- just set up a new group associated with the university.

[17:42]  You: the schools would potentially need to recognize this

[17:43]  You: Barrington, could you see the University you went to in the UK giving credit

[17:43]  Andromeda Mesmer: Set up the new group so that it is fairly independent of the old institution

[17:43]  You: for an online course in SL taught by a senior professor to that institution's students?

[17:43]  Boston Hutchinson: What if the schools could choose, after the fact, whether a course qualified for credits? And other schools could also make this decision under their own degree programs? A grade for the course (or pass/fail) as well as for the students?

[17:44]  You: Yes, Andromeda, but that might make all the rich structure there soemthing to reinvent

[17:44]  Barrington John: it's hardly fair for me to answer that, since I left in 1981, but I don't think you're exceeding the bounds of even British Universities' abilities to see the future :)

[17:44]  Andromeda Mesmer: Well, there are such things as course evaluations in RL -- U of Toronto, U of Waterloo in Canada ...

[17:44]  You: I think, Boston, that would put the risk on the student to take the class, but it's a very good idea to explore with Charlie Nesson at Harvard Law School

[17:45]  Cindy Ecksol: boston, if the schools chose AFTER the fact there would be constant bad feelings/arguments over "quality" -- the the conservative "elder" institution would always have the last say

[17:45]  You: Yes, A

[17:45]  Andromeda Mesmer: I've viewed academic fights from the outside, never inside. Just know the stories.

[17:45]  You: To reiterate a little bit of an overview of this envisioning

[17:45]  You: Develop an online, free, degree-granting, global university, with Harvard as a key player, at the undergraduate and graduate levels

[17:46]  You: and start with 4 undergraduate for-credit courses in the fall of 2008 or the spring of 2009, listed in the Harvard catalog, as well as a course at Harvard Law School

[17:46]  Andromeda Mesmer: But I can imagine how the older part might react to an upstart.

[17:46]  You: then develop these into degree programs. Develop dedicated funding and an endowment for this, invested in socially conscious funds

[17:46]  You: and continue this conversation in real time through this emergent, open University and information technologies about these technologies

[17:46]  You: and to do so, let individuals and groups build virtual worlds in Open Sim and Second Life, which then connect as parts of this developing University, to continue this conversation

[17:47]  Boston Hutchinson: But if multiple schools could vote (by accepting the credits), then most courses of reasonable quality should be able to find a home somewhere. Anyway, what's wrong with a little risk and competition?

[17:47]  Cindy Ecksol thinks the concept is great....but the implementation will be completely, um, "human"

[17:47]  Andromeda Mesmer: LOL

[17:47]  You: Yes, and if Harvard / MIT set the standard, it might make the decision making process in other Universities easier

[17:48]  You: so Harvard's schools, in this scenario, are key

[17:48]  Cindy Ecksol: boston, the real question is "what incentive will an established institution have to accept the Open U courses as 'for credit'"?

[17:48]  You: True, Cindy, and the Berkman Center, now a full Harvard Unviersity center, would be key implementers

[17:48]  Cindy Ecksol: I cannot think of any benefit to the "senior institutions" to do this in most cases

[17:48]  Spider Mycron is Online

[17:49]  You: (it's not easy to achieve University center status at Harvard, and they did so in 10 years)

[17:49]  Boston Hutchinson: Good question, Cindy.

[17:49]  You: fulfilling mission, getting better students from around the world, fulfulling the ideal of a mission

[17:49]  Cindy Ecksol: well, berkmann woudl be a course originator.....and they would have the funding to do so, eh? what is the benefit to, say, Northwestern, to accept a Harvard course? under what circumstances MIGHT it be beneficial to them?

[17:50]  You: vision, that is - to let education help people improve their situations, and to further knowledge generation

[17:50]  Andromeda Mesmer: On the plus side, if there is no advantage, the new courses may also be seen as having no disadvantage -- and so there might be a lack of interference ...

[17:51]  You: Yes, complementing existing Universities curricula would be important, and lots of local knowledge, is something that could emerge in course form in such a wiki / gv format

[17:51]  Cindy Ecksol: ah, so now you're defining this a little better aphilo: perhaps schools would be willing to accept these courses as "for credit" if the requester were a young person in Zimbabwe, but not an American HS grad?

[17:52]  You: In terms of degree granting vis-a-vis a global University, how would Harvard to use the ideas above, grant a Zimbabwean student a BA?

[17:52]  Cindy Ecksol: so the point here is that we need to define the term "to better oneself" -- those would be the "eligible" students, eh?

[17:52]  Boston Hutchinson: I can imagine a university which does nothing but grant degrees, abstracting that function from the teaching function, and basing it's reputation on its ability to select among the on line courses those that meet its standards.

[17:52]  You: And would Harvard be this global University, or some other entity - the latter emerging from the former, makes sense to me

[17:52]  You: Hi Skinny

[17:52]  Cindy Ecksol: the key (as always) is funding: where there is funding, there is always a way :-)

[17:53]  You: If you look back over previous transcripts

[17:53]  You: I see this free-to-students University, where Harvard and MIT post docs are paid at competitive salaries

[17:53]  JenzZa Misfit is Offline

[17:54]  Cindy Ecksol: I can see Harvard or MIT developing a self-contained program., and even that they might accept some outside content...but I find it difficult to see how the "Open University" woudl grant degrees

[17:54]  You: to draw on a kind of socially conscious fund endowment model

[17:54]  Draxtor Despres is Offline

[17:54]  Cindy Ecksol: yes, I saw that....but it still doesn't resolve the "open" concept -- you have defined a more or less self-contained program.

[17:54]  You: as well as government monies - perhaps modeling such a process on MIT's relationship with state funding, for one.

[17:55]  You: ...for the first 5 years, with at large participation to start, which could lead to

[17:55]  You: a degree, in a limited way

[17:55]  You: a degree, in a limited way

[17:55]  You: or better, for a limited number of students

[17:55]  Gentle Heron is Online

[17:55]  Cindy Ecksol wonders what a "limited" degree woudl look like...and how it would play in the marketplace

[17:56]  You: This would be like a kind of CyberOne approach

[17:56]  You: http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/cyberone/

[17:57]  You: CyberOne: Law in the Court of Public Opinion, that Charlie Nesson, Gene Koo and Rebecca Nesson taught here in this Meeting Area in the fall of 2006

[17:57]  You: which included Harvard Law Students, Harvard Extension Students, and at large participants.

[17:58]  You: The Harvard Law Students also had classroom time with Charlie Nesson, and got credit for the course in Harvard Law School.

[17:58]  You: Next week, I'd like to continue this conversation

[17:58]  Michele Mrigesh is Online

[17:58]  Erka Vacirca: That model would not have worked if the at large students got credit

[17:59]  Erka Vacirca: the in-class students would have resented having to pay

[17:59]  You: and focus on the virtual world aspect of such an institution, as well as funding such a global University

[17:59]  Cindy Ecksol agrees with Erka

[17:59]  You: Yes, Erka,

[17:59]  Andromeda Mesmer: I'm going to IM Selaras Partrige from the Academy of Second Learning. She might have some valuable insights, and maybe she can come next week.

[17:59]  Jon Seattle is Offline

[18:00]  You: that's something Charlie, Rebecca, Rob Faris, Colin Maclay, and Gene Koo have all considered, and presents an interesting challenge.

[18:00]  You: Great, A!

[18:00]  Andromeda Mesmer: Right Erka - that has been a little problem at MIT, with the free courses - they got around that -- I assume -- by not giving out degrees for the free courses.

[18:00]  Cindy Ecksol is wondering whether the definition of "credit" needs to be reconsidered....

[18:00]  You: Rob and Colin also taught a course in SL

[18:01]  You: Well, I need to move on

[18:01]  You: I will post this transcript -

[18:01]  You: and see you next week !

[18:01]  You: Very glad you came!

[18:01]  You: And see you soon!

[18:01]  Cindy Ecksol: glad you gave us an excuse to come :-)

[18:01]  Boston Hutchinson: Thanks, Aphilo!

[18:01]  Andromeda Mesmer: See you, Aphilo. I'm off to do some building.

[18:01]  Claryssa Schmidt: thanks Aphilo

[18:01]  Barrington John: goodnight, Aphilo - and thanks!

[18:02]  Erka Vacirca: good night

[18:02]  Barrington John: goodbye everyone - see you around

[18:02]  Boston Hutchinson: Bye everybody!

[18:02]  Boston Hutchinson is Offline

[18:02]  sara Gartenberg: thank you ahilo, and everyone!

[18:04]  You: http://socinfotech.pbwiki.com/June-11-2008-Soc-and-Info-Tech-class-transcript

[18:04]  You: Bye

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Middletown, California