Society and Information Technology in Second Life

Wednesdays, January 9 - July 30, 2008, 4-6, SLT/PT, 7-9 pm ET

on Berkman island in Second Life - http://slurl.com/secondlife/Berkman/114/70/25

Course homepage - http://socinfotech.pbwiki.com

 

Instructor: Scott MacLeod (not on Harvard's faculty) = Aphilo Aarde (in Second Life)

http://scottmacleod.com/papers.htm

 

 

Feb 27 2008 Soc and Info Tech class transcript

 

[15:46]  Luna Bliss is Online

[15:46]  Froukje Hoorenbeek is Online

[15:46]  Annette Paster is Online

[15:46]  Andromeda Mesmer is Online

[15:46]  Spider Mycron is Online

[15:46]  Mariamo Babii is Online

[15:46]  SamBivalent Spork is Online

[15:46]  Jon Seattle is Online

[15:46]  Champler Snook is Online

[15:46]  Daisyblue Hefferman is Online

[15:46]  Barbie Starr is Online

[15:46]  Connecting to in-world Voice Chat...

[15:46]  Connected

[15:46]  You decline Life Heartbeat Class Area, Epirrita (35, 39, 525) from A group member named Spider Mycron.

[15:46]  You decline Virtual Web Symposium -event & streaming details from A group member named Sarasvati Kohime.

[15:46]  You decline Life Heartbeat Class Area, Epirrita (35, 39, 525) from A group member named Spider Mycron.

[15:46]  A group member named 57 Miles gave you Zebra Presenter - BETA (boxed).

[15:54]  Mec Benelli: Hello, Is this an open lecture?

[15:55]  You: Hi Mec

[15:55]  You: Yes, you're welcome to attend this class.

[15:55]  Mec Benelli: Hi Aphilo

[15:56]  Mec Benelli: Thank you very much

[15:56]  You: Here's the course wiki - http://socinfotech.pbwiki.com

[15:56]  Mec Benelli: Thanks

[15:56]  Mec Benelli: I am from Finland

[15:57]  You: It must be early in the morning there.

[15:57]  You: Do you happen to know Pekka Himanen, by any chance?

[15:57]  Mec Benelli: I know his work but not in person

[15:58]  You: I'll be right back . . .

[15:58]  You: Hello Andrew MD

[15:58]  AndrewMD Oh: Hello

[15:58]  Mec Benelli: Hello

[16:00]  AndrewMD Oh: there is a bit of lag

[16:00]  Mec Benelli: Yes .. as always , hehe

[16:01]  AndrewMD Oh: :-)

[16:01]  You: Hello Jules

[16:01]  Mec Benelli: Have to sit tight

[16:01]  Jules Usbourne: hey

[16:01]  You: Lag here too

[16:02]  AndrewMD Oh: yes, Sir

[16:02]  Boston Hutchinson is Online

[16:02]  You: Are you here for Society and Information Technology Jules and Andrew?

[16:02]  Jules Usbourne: certainly am

[16:03]  Jules Usbourne: a little taster maybe

[16:03]  You: Great - here's the wiki - http://socinfotech.pbwiki.com

[16:03]  You: Hi Bolt

[16:03]  You: Welcome

[16:03]  You: Hello Boston

[16:03]  You: Hello Spang

[16:03]  Bolt Bashly: hello, ty

[16:03]  Spang Nastula: hi

[16:03]  Boston Hutchinson: Hi Aphilo

[16:04]  Claryssa Schmidt is Online

[16:04]  You: So this is a course on Society and Information Technology - at large participation is welcome.

[16:05]  You: We're continuing to examine how the IT revolution developed, and the transcripts

[16:05]  You: from previous classes are posted at http://socinfotech.pbwiki.com

[16:05]  You: Hi Claryssa!

[16:06]  You: One interesting aspect of SL is the possibility for multiple lines of reasoning that group chats make possible.

[16:06]  You: So I suspect you may be able to complement some of the areas we'll explore this evening.

[16:07]  You: It makes our conversations richer when you do, so you are welcome to contribute.

[16:07]  You: Hello Rain.

[16:07]  Rain Ninetails: hi!

[16:08]  You: In the past I've found that a kind of flow experience occurs when people chat at the same time . . .

[16:08]  You: Tonight we'll look at some of the cultures that gave rise to the Internet,

[16:08]  You: as well as at the Informational City in relation to the IT revolution

[16:09]  You: We'll examine this latter aspect after the break.

[16:09]  You: Hello Andromeda.

[16:09]  Rain Ninetails: :)

[16:09]  You: This course is perhaps best

[16:09]  Andromeda Mesmer: Hi Aphilo -- thanks for the TP, Rain - large scale failures reported today.

[16:10]  You: conceieved as an examination of a paradigm shift

[16:10]  You: that occurred, that is on a par with other industrial revolutions.

[16:11]  You: And what we're examining here is ways in which this paradigm shift affects

[16:11]  You: every aspect of the society and economic processes.

[16:11]  You: allowing one to do things in specific ways that you couldn't do before, with effects through the entire social structure.

[16:12]  AndrewMD Oh: is this based on some work done by Professor Carlota Perez, Sir?

[16:12]  You: The first far-reaching effect of this IT revolution is that its effects on the economy and society are PERVASIVE

[16:13]  You: I'm very interested in long time Berkeley Professor Manuel Castells' analyses of the Network Society

[16:13]  You: And draw on his work in some measure.

[16:13]  AndrewMD Oh: ok

[16:14]  You: The 2nd thing that occurs in this IT revolution is that fundamental change is at the core of generating and changing information.

[16:15]  You: And as we've explored before, this paradigm shift arose due to three main technological developments - the innovations that emerge with microelectronics, computers and telecommunications

[16:15]  You: starting in large part in the 1950s.

[16:16]  You: A fourth aspect of this IT revolution involves genetic engineering, but we dont' examine that in depth here.

[16:17]  You: So, the four cultures that gave rise to the IT revolution

[16:17]  Chinadoll Lulu is Online

[16:17]  Arawn Spitteler is Online

[16:17]  You: include 1 technomeritocratic culture

[16:17]  Eshi Otawara is Online

[16:17]  You: 2 Hacker culture

[16:18]  You: 3) communitarian culture

[16:18]  You: and 4) and much later - first in the mid -1990s - entrepreneurialism

[16:18]  You: Briefly,

[16:19]  You: the technomeritocratic culture is one that valued GOOD technology

[16:19]  You: Good software was a supreme value.

[16:19]  You: The model here is similar to the academic world

[16:19]  You: which is supposed to be based on EXCELLENCE

[16:20]  You: So the value of excellence combined with the joy of discovery did influence many of the technologies that gave rise to the Intneret

[16:21]  You: ...including early networks, like ARPANET in the late 60s and early 70s

[16:21]  You: TCP/IP in the mid-1970s - which are the protocols which guide packet switching

[16:22]  You: USENET - the first user groups articulation with ARPANET in the late 70s and early 80s

[16:22]  You: and the WWW - Tim Berners-Lee's writing of http and html in the late 80s and early 90s

[16:23]  You: http is hypertext transfer protocol - the web addressing protocol, and html is hyper text markup language, still the language of web pages

[16:24]  You: and numerous other technologies, were all influenced by this technomeritocratic ethos -

[16:24]  You: where money played a relatively insignificant role, and making good software was the key thing

[16:25]  You: So in the Technomeritocratic culture, excellence and meritocracy are guiding processes

[16:25]  You: For example, Vint Cerf, the self-proclaimed father of the the Internet, and a key writer of TCP/IP

[16:26]  You: used Defense Department monies - public monies - because he wanted good software to be available to everyone.

[16:26]  You: 2) On the basis of the above culture a 2nd culture emerged

[16:26]  You: Hacker Culture

[16:27]  You: And Pekka Himanens' "The Hacker Ethic"

[16:27]  You: explores this

[16:27]  You: He explains herethe relationship between hacker and Internet culture

[16:28]  Spider Mycron is Offline

[16:28]  You: For him, a hacker is the media construct which breaks the law - these are so-called crackers

[16:28]  You: Rather, a hacker is someone for whom good software is the most important thing.

[16:29]  You: It's one who hacks - who says "I'm going to find a new solution", and then shares it.

[16:29]  You: So hackers here are not 2 things - they aren't criminals

[16:30]  You: hackers hate crackers

[16:30]  You: which are 2) a sub culture

[16:30]  You: Crackers crack codes for the challengeof it

[16:30]  SamBivalent Spork is Offline

[16:30]  You: They create viruses

[16:30]  You: They make problems for governments

[16:31]  You: There are also political crackers

[16:31]  You: Most crackers are kids playing, challenging the world.

[16:31]  You: So, hackers take pleasure out of hacking.

[16:31]  You: How Hacker Culture relates to the Internet

[16:32]  You: In this viw, Hackers think that free speech is free software - free, good software

[16:32]  You: And companies threaten this.

[16:32]  You: A minority says that software should be free

[16:33]  Luna Bliss is Offline

[16:33]  You: For example - Linux

[16:33]  You: And the majority need free software to improve software - through free software and information exchange.

[16:33]  You: named after Linus Torvalds

[16:33]  You: ...another Finn (Himanen is alos Finnish) - FREIX

[16:34]  SamBivalent Spork is Online

[16:34]  You: was the first name of of LINUX

[16:34]  You: but server administrators called it Linux - Torvalds released

[16:35]  You: the program because he watned the program to be improved.

[16:35]  You: Welcom Natalina - this is a course on Society and Informatnion Techniology - http://socinfotech.pbwiki.com - at large participation is welcom

[16:36]  You: and 1000s and 1000s of people improved LINUX

[16:36]  You: - all for FREE

[16:36]  You: Why keep it free?

[16:36]  You: Because if you freeze it for yourself

[16:36]  You: you close it off

[16:36]  You: So in Hacker culture - 1) you give in order to be given to

[16:37]  You: And 2) prestige is important among hackers, so hackers write for each otehr for free

[16:37]  You: And most hackers can get money, but not all can be recognized.

[16:37]  Breen Mathy is Online

[16:37]  You: Hackers aren't against money, but against money as a supreme value.

[16:38]  You: so some parts of the technomeritocratic culture and to much of hacker culture

[16:39]  You: it's essential to keep free all key software in the Internet

[16:39]  You: 3 COMMUNITARIAN CULTURE

[16:39]  You: The Internet was not made up solely of Hackers

[16:39]  Breen Mathy is Offline

[16:40]  You: In the 70s and the 80s, when email was the most used application

[16:40]  You: as were bbs - bulletin board systems

[16:40]  Breen Mathy is Online

[16:40]  You: the Internet was an important way for people to communicate with people

[16:40]  You: Community took shape on line

[16:41]  You: for the sharing of information

[16:41]  You: and through chat rooms, and listservs, as well.

[16:41]  You: 4) ENTREPRENEURIAL CULTURE

[16:41]  You: This began to play a significant role only in the 1990s

[16:41]  Spider Mycron is Online

[16:41]  You: The mentality here was - "all this is great - let's make a pile of money"

[16:42]  You: But Infomration Technology was a risky investment

[16:42]  You: So a business emerged out of applications.

[16:42]  You: And this helped diffuse the Internet to the rest of the world, and led to

[16:42]  You: the development of markets, as well as wide spread use by people

[16:43]  You: The importance of these cultures that infomred the Internet and the IT Revolution

[16:43]  You: goes from top to bottom.

[16:43]  You: 1) the technomeritocratic

[16:43]  You: 2 hacker

[16:43]  You: 3 communitarian

[16:44]  You: and 4) entrepreneurial

[16:44]  Breen Mathy is Offline

[16:45]  You: We'll take a break at about 5 SLT / PST

[16:45]  You: for 10 minutes or so

[16:45]  You: And next week Boston has offered to talk about Ray Kurzweil's vision -

[16:46]  You: Kurzweil, affiliated with MIT, has one of the most successful track records at prognosticating the future of the Internet.

[16:46]  Diego Ibanez is Online

[16:46]  You: Is there anything you'd like to add about this now?

[16:46]  You: Boston/

[16:47]  Boston Hutchinson: He's predicting that the rate of change will continue to accelerate

[16:47]  Boston Hutchinson: so that asingularity occurs before the middle of the century

[16:48]  You: Can you explain what singualarity is

[16:48]  Boston Hutchinson: at which point, the difference between human and machine intelligence, and indeed the difference between humans and non-humans will blur beyond recognition

[16:49]  You: Thanks

[16:49]  You: Both Boston and Andromeda

[16:49]  You: have given interesting presentations in past weeks

[16:49]  You: on Croquet - another virtual world, which will partly reside locally, on your own machine

[16:50]  Eshi Otawara is Offline

[16:50]  Boston Hutchinson: a singularity is a point where a mathematical formula breaks down and doesn't give an answer (like infinity), or the boundary of a black hole, where essentially no information is visible

[16:50]  You: and Charlie Stross', Heinlein's, and a little about Steve Mann's visions.

[16:50]  You: I suspect that

[16:51]  You: some of you have specialized knowledge or interests, relation to the IT revolution, whether it be envisioning th efuture, or how it is affecting social and economic processes

[16:51]  You: and if you'd like to present something here, you are welcom to

[16:52]  You: Are there any questions or observations thus far?

[16:54]  You: There is a group for this course Soc & Info Tech - Aphilo on Berkman - thorugh which

[16:54]  You: we make occasional announcements.

[16:54]  Andromeda Mesmer: Just to add a little about the popularity of Charlie Stross book -- HALTING STATE about the near future world has gone into a 2nd printing, and he will write a sequel.

[16:55]  You: Thanks

[16:55]  You: Any questions or observations? (I encourage you to particpate in the conversation)

[16:55]  You: Well let's take a break now, and come back at 5 minutes past the hour.

[16:55]  You: See you soon.

[16:55]  SamBivalent Spork is Online

[16:56]  Andromeda Mesmer: OK. I'm off to the RL fridge :)

[16:56]  You: And I will post this transcript to teh wiki - http://socinfotech.pbwiki.com

[16:56]  You: :)

[16:56]  You: :)

[16:57]  You decline How to make a Movie in SL - pack from A group member named Spider Mycron.

[16:58]  Eshi Otawara is Online

[17:01]  Diego Ibanez is Offline

[17:02]  Claryssa Schmidt is Online

[17:06]  Rain Ninetails: hi Oshi!

[17:06]  Oshi Pixie: hiya

[17:06]  You: Hello

[17:06]  Rain Ninetails: :)

[17:06]  Rain Ninetails: meet friend Andromeda on my left

[17:06]  Oshi Pixie: pleasure to meet you

[17:07]  Andromeda Mesmer: Hi -!

[17:07]  You: I've posted the first half of tonight's transcript to http://socinfotech.pbwiki.com

[17:07]  You: Hi Oshi - Welcome

[17:07]  Oshi Pixie: thx aphilo

[17:08]  You: So, we're going to move away from the cultures that informed the development of the IT revolution

[17:08]  You: to Information TEchnology and spatial transformation.

[17:09]  You: conversation makes the course interesting.

[17:09]  You: And again, I suspect you may have specialized knowledges, or if you would like to contribut generally, please do.

[17:09]  You: Welcom Harris

[17:10]  You: So, the spatial transformation we're talking about is of the world itself, affected by technology but also the Network Society.

[17:10]  You: This course is explaining how the Network Society emerged

[17:11]  Diego Ibanez is Online

[17:11]  You: Spaces express these transformations

[17:11]  You: They express the habitat we live in, and the society.

[17:11]  You: And these transofrmation are far-reaching, and may be complicated by both reports by the media, with their prohecies of the future.

[17:12]  You: Concerning Information TEchnology's effects on urban living, the media's views are often plain wrong.

[17:13]  You: the basic prediciton has long been, that the more we go into the IT Rev, the less cities makes sense is wrong, too.

[17:13]  You: The electronic cottage theory - no more traffic, no more cities, - just countryside and pretty houses `

[17:14]  You: :) - look at Silicon Valley - this hasn't happened.

[17:14]  You: Smart cars and trains, for example, have emerged to deal with traffic.

[17:14]  Xirconnia Morphett is Online

[17:14]  You: How many of you work from home, primarliy through digital technologies. I'm curious - I know at least one.

[17:15]  Boston Hutchinson: Maybe it just hasn't started yet

[17:15]  Boston Hutchinson: i do

[17:15]  You: Does anyone else here?

[17:15]  Oshi Pixie: i'd like 2 eventually

[17:15]  You: Perhaps . . .

[17:15]  You: It's very possible.

[17:15]  You: Mec, Bolt?

[17:15]  Andromeda Mesmer: I do , partly.

[17:15]  Bolt Bashly: a bit

[17:16]  You: Jules, Rain, AndrewMD?

[17:16]  Mec Benelli: Partly yes

[17:16]  Rain Ninetails: sometimes. I'd like to more

[17:16]  You: Would you like to, and do you foresee this happening, say, five years out?

[17:17]  You: So it's not that things aren't changing -

[17:17]  You: But what I'd like to do

[17:17]  You: here now is 3 things

[17:17]  You: 1) try to indicante the major transformations in regions and cities

[17:18]  You: 2) examine how technology plays into these scenarios

[17:18]  You: and 3) explain how the economy affects spatial transformation

[17:19]  You: In terms of technology's effects vis a vis economic and social change for spatial transformation

[17:19]  You: Waht's really happening is the transformation of spatial form

[17:19]  You: I.e. the transforamtion of urban settlements

[17:19]  You: urban settlements meaning settlements beyond a certain size

[17:20]  You: For the UN and urban area comprises a place where more than 2,500 people live together - an arbitrary defintion

[17:20]  You: The rate of urbanization beyond a social size is the main transformation seen in the world at large.

[17:21]  You: We've now crossed a threshold of nubmers of urban populations living in cities

[17:22]  You: In orther worlds, the planet has a majority of urban population population for the 1st time in history.

[17:22]  Bruce Flyer is Online

[17:23]  Bruce Flyer: Hi everyone

[17:23]  You: 80% in South america live in cities

[17:23]  You: Hello Bruce.

[17:23]  You: In Westerna nd Northern Europe, this population is 82%

[17:23]  You: And 80% in Japan and on the Korean Penninsula

[17:23]  You: and 76% in russia

[17:23]  You: Hello Bruce

[17:23]  Diego Ibanez is Offline

[17:24]  You: In other areas 35% in 2000 in China lived in cities, and this is changing dramatically.

[17:24]  You: 30% in India

[17:24]  You: 40% in SE Asia

[17:24]  You: and 25-27% in Sub saharan Africa

[17:24]  You: However, projections of demographics for

[17:25]  You: the next 25 years, for rural areas - show the fastes rates of urbanization ever.

[17:25]  You: In china, in 1996, there were 377 million over 1.3 bilion in China, and

[17:26]  You: by 2020, there will be signficantly over 700 million i.e. a doubling will occur.

[17:26]  You: And the population of China by 2020 is expected to be 1.6 billion

[17:27]  You: So about 1/2 of the chinese population in 2020 will live in cities.

[17:27]  Boston Hutchinson: if every village had fiber optics and cheap computers, would that change?

[17:27]  You: And similar developments will occur in India and subsaharan Africa

[17:27]  Boston Hutchinson: if jobs were mostly in SL, would that change?

[17:27]  You: So there will be a massive depopulation in teh countryside.

[17:28]  You: If money can be made through the Internet, Boston

[17:28]  You: One of the main resasons of this move to cities is for access to jobs

[17:28]  Boston Hutchinson: will the call centers move into virtual worlds?

[17:28]  Boston Hutchinson: will outsourcing be urban or virtual?

[17:28]  You: And the largest urbanization in human history will occur.

[17:29]  You: The XO - one laptop per child - the $185 dollar laptop, and other low cost computers, may faciliatate this

[17:29]  Geda Hax is Online

[17:30]  You: But urbanization is occurring, and its a massive transformation

[17:30]  Boston Hutchinson: in 2020, the $100 should buy a lot more computer than any of us has

[17:30]  You: So 2) in this growth, the most signficant growth is the growth of mega metropolitcan areas

[17:30]  You: The larger the size of the city, the faster the growth of the city, because

[17:30]  You: :), hopefull, Boston

[17:32]  You: and c)

[17:32]  You: and b) in large metropolitan areas, there's a concentration with most opportnity:

[17:32]  You: jobs, health care, and power and wealth

[17:32]  You: and c) (lag) an even faster concentration will occur in megapolitan areas

[17:33]  You: 3) Metropolitan areas are generating

[17:34]  You: a) a new typ of urban form, without precedent in history - metropolitcan regions, different from cities.

[17:34]  You: Take the San Francisco Bay Area in terms of spatial contribution -

[17:34]  You: in functional terms, it's a metrpolitan area from the north bay to Santa Cruz

[17:35]  You: And it's connected to teh central California valley - from Stockton, to Fresno, and to some degree to Sacramento

[17:35]  You: So this comprises something more than a typcial 9 counties of 6.2 billion.

[17:36]  You: And there are 7.5 nillion in the greater Bay Area

[17:36]  You: Similar processes are occurring in the New York New Jersey area, and for example, in terms of the southern California spatil unit, between Ventura and south of Orange county.

[17:37]  You: which actually extends in continutiyt to San Diego and Tijuana

[17:37]  You: What's the definition?

[17:37]  You: between metropolics and megalopolis?

[17:37]  Eshi Otawara is Offline

[17:37]  You: It's typically made in terms of populations

[17:38]  You: An urban area is an area with a dense concentration of population

[17:38]  You: And metropolitcan areas are large conubations of cities and suburbs

[17:39]  You: Cities are multifunctional

[17:39]  You: they include activities, services, residential and industiral areas

[17:39]  You: And suburbs are typcially residential or industiral

[17:39]  You: So urbanization is creating new animals.

[17:40]  You: If one goes to the outskirts of metropolitcan area of Vacaville in northern California, where computing is central to its core

[17:40]  You: You have a kind of exurbia

[17:40]  You: And if these three areas connect, with different cetneres

[17:41]  You: there should be a new name

[17:41]  You: for conurbation, metropolis, and megalooplis - there's no agrement in the literature

[17:41]  Breen Mathy is Online

[17:42]  You: So, a metropolitan region is comprised by differetn nuclei and systems

[17:42]  You: that become one system that cannont be explained without the other

[17:42]  You: So, one empirical definition - communting labor markets

[17:42]  Boston Hutchinson: and how do you distinguish between Manhattan, where you can walk across town versus LA, where there isn't really a center that matters?

[17:43]  You: different centers and nuclei

[17:43]  You: So the space of commuting to work defines a metropolitcan area

[17:43]  You: It used to be taht metropolitcan areas were much smaller

[17:44]  You: Technically this increase in scale leads to faster transportation systems

[17:44]  You: The actual calculation is the ratio between distanced travelled over time travlled.

[17:45]  You: and travel is expanding.

[17:45]  You: So those are the major transformations in regions and cities

[17:45]  You: (some of )

[17:46]  Boston Hutchinson: Will this trend continue? If we don't stop driving to work, the place we drive to may be under water.

[17:46]  You: Some of the social changes include massive participation of paid women into the labor force

[17:46]  Joe Petrel is Online

[17:46]  You: and a commuting space for 2 in a household.

[17:46]  You: Agreed, but urbanization - is the signficant trend that demographers anticipate in

[17:46]  You: the next 50 years or so.

[17:47]  You: even with the Internet

[17:47]  You: Households are placed now in a much braoder space

[17:47]  You: where a job is the primary factor in influencing choice of where to live, and housing second.

[17:48]  Boston Hutchinson: I think they're assuming that the technological revolution is over, when it's just starting.

[17:48]  You: One of the myths the media helps promote is or mobility

[17:48]  You: but residential mobility has decreased in the US

[17:48]  You: And Europeans don't move.

[17:48]  You: Adn Now good mortgages are hard to find, althought that may be getting slightly easier

[17:49]  AndrewMD Oh: i think that assertion depends on the type of industry the city has, services or industrial cities have different characteristics and therefre their evolution will be different

[17:49]  Andromeda Mesmer: When there was the internet boom in California -- people took high payng jobs, but sometimes had to sleep in their cars -- taken to a real extreme.

[17:50]  You: Not only are we in a wave of urbanization, but it's a new kind of urbanization

[17:50]  You: 2.5 million people live in Paris, France

[17:50]  Boston Hutchinson: I think the trend is to live close enough to be able to commute occasionally

[17:50]  You: But 8.5 million live in the Paris metropolitan area, in satellite towns, and sububrs

[17:51]  You: And France has the fastest speed train.

[17:51]  You: Interesting points

[17:51]  You: In the last 10 minutes, let's talk about some of the points you bring up.

[17:51]  Bruce Flyer: i would like to find employment with benefits "here"

[17:52]  Boston Hutchinson: Where's "here"? SL?

[17:52]  Boston Hutchinson: I see

[17:52]  Bruce Flyer: online, not necessarily in SL

[17:52]  You: Perhaps you're right Boston, but city demographers aren't using IT to explain a change in these trends, that I've seen.

[17:53]  Bruce Flyer: are there any major employers hiring in SL yet?

[17:53]  You: Yes, Andrew

[17:53]  Bruce Flyer: i would have to get "dress for success" for avatars

[17:53]  You: Yes, Andromeda - the boom in Silicon Valley was incredible, with interesting social consequence, but some while ago, people were talking about the window closing :)

[17:54]  Boston Hutchinson: It seems to me that the metropolitican (is that the word?) areas in CA are trending toward the occasional commute model.

[17:54]  You: so many millionaires were minted in a very small amount of time, which isn't happening at nearly the same rate.

[17:54]  Andromeda Mesmer: The Germans have a government run employment centre. And IBM has lots of employees -- but those were hired in the RL first.

[17:54]  Boston Hutchinson: Isn't there also a trend toward self-employment?

[17:55]  You: The occasionall commute is a facet of this process of urbanzation.

[17:55]  Eshi Otawara is Online

[17:55]  Andromeda Mesmer: Well the artists in SL can run their own businesses, like artists in RL.

[17:55]  Boston Hutchinson: :)

[17:55]  You: SL is an interesting case - cities aren't springing up here.

[17:56]  Boston Hutchinson: And there are a lot more artists than there used to be

[17:56]  You: And many companeis that bought into SL, have pulled back a little, not knowing how to make money here yet.

[17:56]  Bruce Flyer: here

[17:56]  AndrewMD Oh: :)

[17:56]  Bruce Flyer: there are no cities because there is no need for water systems

[17:57]  You: I misspelled metropolitan, Boston, but you just coined a new Califronia word.

[17:57]  Boston Hutchinson: We have perfectly good water systems without a city. Just dig a hole in the ground. :)

[17:57]  You: :)

[17:57]  AndrewMD Oh: place doesn´t make space

[17:58]  AndrewMD Oh: cities are spaces and not just places

[17:58]  You: But perhaps we can cultivate new processes in SL that replace the massive changes due to urbanzition ahead

[17:58]  AndrewMD Oh: in SL we see many places but they are not spaces

[17:58]  Breen Mathy is Offline

[17:58]  Andromeda Mesmer: However sometimes they just have very strong associations.

[17:58]  Andromeda Mesmer: Even if there are no real cities, still there are groupings, and successful businesses attract other businesses, and the rent goes up. Everybody could live in isolation, but they don't.

[17:58]  Andromeda Mesmer: Via TP links.

[17:59]  Boston Hutchinson: I wish we could all teleport to work in RL!

[17:59]  AndrewMD Oh: exactly, you create a city by transforming the place into space

[17:59]  Bruce Flyer: do people with houses in SL usually "park" their avatars there every night?

[17:59]  You: If space refers to meanings associated with place, that's true Andrew, whereas placee is phsycial.

[17:59]  AndrewMD Oh: in the case of SL there are communities transforming place into space or micro cities

[17:59]  Patrio Graysmark is Online

[18:00]  You: Let's contiue to chat, as we close the class . . . I need to move outside from the cafe I'm in

[18:00]  Bruce Flyer: but we have no identity here based upon location do we?

[18:00]  Perry Proudhon is Online

[18:00]  AndrewMD Oh: again you are talking about a place

[18:00]  Boston Hutchinson: Interesting point, Bruce

[18:00]  You: For those who need to go, thank you for coming, and see you next week.

[18:00]  AndrewMD Oh: location means place

[18:01]  AndrewMD Oh: the space creation is linked to identity

[18:01]  You: But in some ways we do, Bruce - I think most of us have an identity associated with avirtual isalnd - n'est-ce pas?

[18:01]  Claryssa Schmidt: thanks :)

[18:01]  Bruce Flyer: thank you Aphilo

[18:01]  Boston Hutchinson: Thanks for class, Aphilo.

[18:01]  AndrewMD Oh: yes, many thanks, I might leave as well

[18:01]  You: :)

[18:01]  AndrewMD Oh: have a good night, here in Europe is almost 2:00 am

[18:01]  Mec Benelli: Thanks

[18:02]  You have offered friendship to Mec Benelli

[18:02]  You have offered friendship to AndrewMD Oh

[18:02]  AndrewMD Oh is Online

[18:02]  Mec Benelli is Online

[18:02]  Mec Benelli: It is 4.00 am

[18:02]  AndrewMD Oh: :-)

[18:02]  AndrewMD Oh: see you next week

[18:02]  You: early :)

[18:02]  AndrewMD Oh: Good by all

[18:02]  Boston Hutchinson: Good bye

[18:03]  AndrewMD Oh is Offline

[18:03]  Bruce Flyer: i would like to have an association with Harvard in RL but the fact that my avatar comes here frequently does not really cause that to happen -- at least not yet

[18:03]  You: Good nght

[18:03]  Bruce Flyer: maybe someday we will explore avatar psychology

[18:04]  Mariamo Babii is Offline

[18:04]  Boston Hutchinson: I've learned that Ray Kurzweil has an avatar, and intends to make her autonomous

[18:04]  You: True

[18:04]  Boston Hutchinson: yes

[18:04]  Bruce Flyer: Ramona?

[18:04]  Andromeda Mesmer: That is very interesting,Boston.

[18:04]  Boston Hutchinson: but as far as i know, she's not in SL

[18:05]  You: A good starting place is Sherry Turkle's book "Life on the Screen"

[18:05]  Boston Hutchinson: He has full motor control, including facial expressions and voice

[18:05]  Bruce Flyer: if she visits an island the required compulation might crash the island

[18:05]  You: As well, as Stanford's Bailenson's and Nick Yee's work

[18:05]  Boston Hutchinson: via his ownmotions

[18:05]  Boston Hutchinson: it takes a lot of computers and software

[18:06]  Bruce Flyer: it would be nice to build a collorative brain for an autonomous avatar

[18:06]  You: And Mitch Kapor, one of the first investors in SL is banking on a camera to facilitate aspects of avatar agency.

[18:06]  Boston Hutchinson: in a few years, we'll all have that much computing power

[18:07]  Boston Hutchinson: yes, and mitch and ray have a bet on the Turing Test

[18:07]  Andromeda Mesmer: Well, SL is getting more powerful so you never know. I discussed inventory with people last night, since I have an inventory of 39 K now -- apparently an inventory of 10 K would have crashed avatars in the early days, but now some have 60 K, 100 K ...

[18:07]  Bruce Flyer: wow

[18:07]  You: I agree, Boston, but you've outlined some limitations to synthesizing text, say,

[18:08]  You: from SL to form an avatar brain

[18:08]  You: Although I think this is a fruitful line of research.

[18:08]  Bruce Flyer: i guess i have a light pixelprint

[18:08]  Boston Hutchinson: The avatar controls would run on your own computer, just as they do now

[18:09]  Boston Hutchinson: but, of course, they aren't very realisitic yet and that will take more processing at Linden

[18:09]  You: Will inventory be a determining factor in questions of avatar agency, I wonder.

[18:09]  Bruce Flyer: inventory of cognitive objects -- Minsky's Society of Mind perhaps

[18:10]  Boston Hutchinson: the avatar brain would be on the avatar's computer, not on SL's

[18:10]  Boston Hutchinson: the wager between Kurzweil and Kapor is for 2029

[18:10]  Bruce Flyer: gives new meaning to thin client

[18:10]  Diego Ibanez is Online

[18:10]  Daisyblue Hefferman is Offline

[18:11]  Bruce Flyer: fat client = smart autonous avatar?

[18:11]  You: A co-mingling of hard drive and neural processes, with different intermediary technologies like a keyboard - perhaps brainfingers - http://brainfingers.com, for example.

[18:12]  Boston Hutchinson: I think the inventory issue has more to do with the SL business model than with technology

[18:13]  Boston Hutchinson: no keyboard

[18:13]  You: True, as well as possible outcomes . . .

[18:13]  Boston Hutchinson: Kurzweil predicts that the interface between you and the virtual world will be by nanobots at the synases inthe brain

[18:13]  Andromeda Mesmer: Well, a German IT guy told me, when I was a fresh newbie, that I could have as much of anything as I wanted, and that ANYTHING ELSE WOULD NOT MAKE SENSE. Since I was used to limits in memory, from the old days, I was kind of shell-shocked for 3 days -- then started grabbing every script, gesture, and so forth in sight.

[18:13]  SamBivalent Spork is Offline

[18:13]  Bruce Flyer: and i thought table PC was advanced

[18:14]  You: Could be, but http://brainfingers.com already offers an interface between hands-less computer use, including the production of words.

[18:14]  Andromeda Mesmer: One of the biggest problems in SL for people is how to manage their inventory, not the size -- and I have learned how to manage mine -- it is pretty well organized.

[18:15]  Boston Hutchinson: There's clearly a confluence of technology, art and business that makes the future very hard to predict.

[18:15]  Andromeda Mesmer: "very hard" is an understatement :)

[18:15]  Boston Hutchinson: I can't manage my inventory, and it's almost nothing!

[18:15]  You: And novel, accidental and unforseen convergences have been signficant in the development of the Internet.

[18:16]  You: very

[18:17]  Boston Hutchinson: Stross' vision in Accelerando is vary similar to Kurzweil's but with a lot of colorful additions to make for good fiction.

[18:18]  Boston Hutchinson: I'm not sure that the convergences were unforseen by everybody.

[18:18]  Bruce Flyer: i wish my professional association would meet here. it costs a bundle to go somewhere to present a paper for the vitae

[18:18]  Boston Hutchinson: There were people who made some predictions that were close, including Kurzweil.

[18:19]  You: Perhaps, but TCP / IP and Request for Comments as a key process were a work in progress, so to speak.

[18:19]  Boston Hutchinson: Give ita few years,Bruce.

[18:19]  Bruce Flyer: :-)

[18:19]  You: And while Marshall McLuhan foresaw a global communciation network in the 60s, Berners-Lee couldn't have foreseen or written http and html

[18:20]  You: with TCP / IP

[18:20]  Bruce Flyer: brb

[18:20]  Boston Hutchinson: Yes, but people were thinking about what the interface would look like long before we had the hardware to run it on

[18:20]  You: I'm need to take off . . .

[18:21]  Boston Hutchinson: and there were network protocols in the 60's. some of the best, in fact.

[18:21]  You: True - ARPANET first transmitted digital code in 1969, I think.

[18:22]  You: See you next week.

[18:22]  You: Very nice to chat.

[18:22]  Boston Hutchinson: The Lanning protocol, was earlier, i think, and may be the theoretically optimal arbitration scheme

[18:22]  You: :)

[18:22]  Andromeda Mesmer: I just remembered a funny point raised about predictions -- I think it was Robert Heinlein who said that many people predicted a manned landing on the moon, but nobody predicted that it would be seen on live TV.

[18:22]  Boston Hutchinson: See you. Thanks!

[18:23]  Andromeda Mesmer: Well, I should be off too.

[18:23]  Spider Mycron is Offline

[18:23]  Boston Hutchinson: Interesting point,ANdromeda

[18:23]  Andromeda Mesmer: Well the social aspects of change are not easily predicted - like the change in courtship habits, when the car appeared.

[18:24]  Boston Hutchinson: Back to RL. I haven't gotten my wife and kids to move to SL yet, but I'm working on it.

[18:24]  Boston Hutchinson: :}

[18:24]  You: We haven't examined TV as information technology in depth yest, Andromeda, although it may have been significant in changing the way the Pentagon carries out war - in that people didn't want to see body bags, after Viet Na, and the Pentagon has consequently been very careful about creating American casualities.

[18:24]  Bruce Flyer: maybe we have something in common that could be the basis for our organizing a professional association here and having annual conferences

[18:24]  Andromeda Mesmer: It can be mind-boggling -- a nurse from Scotland was telling me -- inToronto -- that her cat was watching me on the screen, and really fascinated by the movements :)

[18:25]  Bruce Flyer: LOL

[18:25]  You: I'm posting the transcript.

[18:25]  You: See you next week.

[18:25]  Andromeda Mesmer: See you Aphilo --