Society and Information Technology in Second Life

Wednesdays, January 9 - July 30, 2008, 4-6, SLT/PT, 7-9 pm ET

on Berkman island in Second Life - http://slurl.com/secondlife/Berkman/114/70/25

Course homepage - http://socinfotech.pbwiki.com

 

 

Instructor: Scott MacLeod (not on Harvard's faculty) = Aphilo Aarde (in Second Life)

http://scottmacleod.com/papers.htm

 

 

Feb 13 2008 Soc and Info Tech class transcript

 

[15:54]  Andromeda Mesmer is Online

[15:57]  Jeande Laville: hey aphilo your in my favorite seat how have you been

[15:57]  Boston Hutchinson is Online

[15:58]  Jeande Laville: well when you return its nice to see you again\

[15:58]  Chinadoll Lulu is Offline

[15:58]  Claryssa Schmidt is Online

[15:59]  Jeande Laville: hi im right here behing you

[15:59]  You: Hi Jeande - I was away fromthe computer . . .fine thanks, and you?

[15:59]  Jeande Laville: doing very well and getting a little more into sl

[15:59]  You: Come over to this course on society and information technology, if you like.

[15:59]  You: Great.

[16:00]  Boston Hutchinson: Hi Rain

[16:00]  You: It starts momentarily.

[16:00]  Rain Ninetails: hi!

[16:00]  Jeande Laville: oh gosh ive got to sign off soon but ill start where is it

[16:00]  Claryssa Schmidt: hi Boston

[16:00]  You: I'm going to head over now.

[16:00]  Boston Hutchinson: Hi Claryssa

[16:00]  You: Ok . . . in the meeting area

[16:00]  You: Hi Boston

[16:00]  Jeande Laville: ok ill follow

[16:00]  You: Hi Rain

[16:00]  Boston Hutchinson: Hi Aphilo

[16:00]  Rain Ninetails: hi Aphilo!

[16:01]  You: Hi Claryssa!

[16:01]  Claryssa Schmidt: hi :)

[16:01]  You: Welcome Jeande

[16:01]  You: Andromeda will present later on

[16:01]  Boston Hutchinson: Hi Jeande

[16:01]  Jeande Laville: thank you

[16:02]  Jeande Laville: hi rain

[16:02]  Rain Ninetails: hi :)

[16:02]  You: She's going to characterize some visions for Information Technology, based on the writings of a number of writers, I think.

[16:02]  You: And before that, Boston, do you have any further thoughts you'd like to add about Croquet?

[16:03]  Boston Hutchinson: Nothing more that I've prepared, but happy to discuss if anyone has questions.

[16:04]  You: In the course, I encourage you to chat as I type, as the conversation that emerges from that is often rich, and a novel form ofknowlegdge production.

[16:04]  You: I'm curious, Boston, how long you think it will take until Croquet becomes used by many, or if it will?

[16:05]  You: Hi Andromda!

[16:05]  Boston Hutchinson: I don't know. It needs something to push it beyond academia, and I don't see that happening right away.

[16:05]  Claryssa Schmidt: hi Andromeda

[16:05]  You: IN the first half of the course this evening, I'd like to explore the history of the internet from

[16:05]  Rain Ninetails: :)

[16:05]  Boston Hutchinson: Hi Andromeda

[16:05]  Andromeda Mesmer: Hi, Boston, Hi Aphilo, Hi, Rain :)

[16:05]  You: ...from the first transmission of digital signals inthe late 1960s - 1968-69 - ARPANET

[16:06]  Arawn Spitteler is Online

[16:06]  You: Andromeda, are you willing to present a little after 8 this evening?

[16:06]  Andromeda Mesmer: Sure.

[16:06]  Annette Paster is Online

[16:07]  You: I suspect some of you know this history, geography and actors, and I encourage you to share in the conversation.

[16:07]  You: Great, A

[16:07]  You: The first demonstration of ARPANET took place in 1972 in Washington DC

[16:08]  You: It was now operational on mostly us-wide campuses

[16:08]  You: and in Geneva and London

[16:08]  You: It worked.

[16:09]  You: so they decided to privatize

[16:09]  You: But ARPANET at the time said that it wasn't relaly a military application, although funding came from the military

[16:09]  You: Get serious.

[16:09]  You: They offered it to AT& T, but AT& T decdied that it didn't have commercail application, and left it in the hands form computer scientists.

[16:09]  You: So Universitities took it seriously

[16:10]  You: And they developed a global network.

[16:10]  You: The problem at the time was with communiction protocols - which are the common programs for computers to talk

[16:10]  You: And they put their best students on it.

[16:11]  You: there were 3 key people.

[16:11]  You: This took from in the Network Working Group

[16:11]  You: Vint Cerf - the self-proclaimed father of the Internet

[16:11]  You: Steve Crocker

[16:12]  You: and Jon Pstel - who was also became a kind of moral authority as people were developing this protocols.

[16:12]  You: These 3 people ulitmatley designed Internet protocols.

[16:12]  You: n southern California, with USC and UCLA studnets

[16:12]  You: There was also a California and MIT connection.

[16:13]  You: Cerf went to the IPTO

[16:13]  You: the technology that underlies the Internet -

[16:13]  You: Internet Technology Protocol Office, met Paul Baran - who had the idea for packet switching in the mind 50s -

[16:14]  You: and together Cerf and Baran, from 1973-1979 wrote a series of papers on TCP, IP - Transmission control Protocol - Internet Protocol

[16:14]  You: on which the Internet is based today .

[16:14]  Luna Bliss is Offline

[16:15]  You: These protocols allow Networks to talk to one another.

[16:15]  You: They are a fairly open system, and were designed as such,

[16:15]  You: and this has led to numerous security programming challenges

[16:15]  Luna Bliss is Online

[16:16]  You: By and large, and by the end of the 1970s, all work was done, and the Internet could operate (the WWW came in 1989)

[16:16]  You: So the defense department started to get serious.

[16:16]  You: - mostly personal use

[16:17]  You: Over 80% of the use of the Internet in the late 1970s was for e-mail.

[16:17]  You: And e-mail use is still almost this high.

[16:17]  You: Most e-mail was based on POP email lists

[16:18]  You: (Post office Protocol - one protocol of TCP/IP)

[16:18]  Enapa Pennell is Offline

[16:18]  You: And twomm of the most prominent groups were the San Francisco lovers of Science Fiction list

[16:18]  You: and the Marijuana Procurement list :)

[16:18]  Mariamo Babii is Offline

[16:19]  You: In 1983, the Defense Department decided to split ARPANET into 2.

[16:19]  You: 1) MILNET -a military network - including an e-mail system for units

[16:20]  You: and 2) ARPANET Internet - for research and cilvian purposes

[16:20]  You: And they decided to transfer most of the Network to the NSF (National Science Foundation )

[16:20]  You: In 1990, ARPANET was old and tired, and it was decommissioned

[16:21]  You: the NSF received isntructions to start privatizing, and received a comission with a plan to privatize

[16:21]  You: And in 1995 the Internet was Privatized.

[16:22]  You: On the other hand, there was a grass roots system

[16:22]  You: a countercultural movement as an instrument of freedom and alternative thought

[16:22]  You: that emerged on the Internet

[16:23]  You: also around Universities by the same students who had developed TP/IP and what followed.

[16:23]  You: So Science, the Military, and Counterculture created the Internet

[16:23]  You: At frist ARPANET disallowed the use of certain applications.

[16:23]  You: But there was a bigger problem

[16:24]  You: The Software of USENET and ARPANET couldn't communicate

[16:25]  You: USENet was a discussion system that was distributed and global

[16:25]  You: and a precursor to the Internet

[16:25]  Eshi Otawara is Offline

[16:25]  You: The fusion of ARPANET and USENET

[16:25]  You: ultimately became the Internet

[16:25]  Jeande Laville: Aphilo this is sofascinatingt that it kills me to break away but ive got to go back to rl i hope i can sit in again when i have more time thanks

[16:26]  Jeande Laville is Offline

[16:26]  You: So the Internet came from both the top and bottom simultaneiously . . .

[16:26]  You: glad you came ... looking forward to seeing you again.

[16:26]  Eshi Otawara is Online

[16:26]  You: In 1983, Tom Jennings designed a program to allow dial up connections called FIDO

[16:27]  You: He built single handedly a global network called FIDONET

[16:27]  You: This has happened again and again in the history of the Internet, where an individual makes a contribution that shapes a far reaching transformation, and unplanned.

[16:28]  You: FIDONET was also called the "Poor Man's Internet" - for the price of a local phone call, you could join get on the Internet

[16:29]  You: There were 3 million users still on FiDONET in 2000, and 400 million Internet users.

[16:29]  You: Now there are at least 1.5 billion Internet users, and about the same number on FIDONET

[16:30]  You: So the formation of the Internet came from Military / University and students, who were interested in allowing studnets to communicate for free.

[16:30]  You: And many of these protocols are still used

[16:30]  You: Mailing lists, postings, chat rooms

[16:30]  You: These all developed from the personal computer's connection to the world . . .

[16:31]  You: So, to summarize these stages of development,

[16:31]  You: In the late 1960s to 1970s, 1) military research sponsored out of computer departments of leading Universities gave rise to early forms of Networking

[16:32]  You: 2) and in the 1970s, ARPANET developed, for both Military (Milnet) and Civilian puposes.

[16:32]  Annette Paster is Offline

[16:32]  You: And int he late 1970s, communication software, publicly developed softwared, was developed, and everyone benefited.

[16:33]  You: IN the 1990s, ARPANET was closed.

[16:33]  You: So USENET involved two key developments

[16:33]  You: 1) you could communicate in conjunction with ARPANET in the mid 1980s

[16:34]  You: And 2) USENET could go global from the beginning, but ARPANET couldn't

[16:34]  You: So the Global connection of the Internet came via USENET

[16:35]  You: And in the 1995, it was privatized.

[16:35]  You: And from 1990 to 1995, the US Governement gradualy moved to privatization via NSF

[16:35]  You: Software came form the private sector

[16:35]  You: Anyone could set up nodes and use the backbone

[16:35]  You: Universities, private companies, and anyone with a server!

[16:35]  You: - a very open system

[16:36]  You: Even with USENET, it requried some technical sophistication

[16:36]  You: There wasn't any user firendly technology

[16:36]  You: So here is where something interesting happens.

[16:37]  You: In 1991, moving forward to the WWW -

[16:37]  You: editor browser programs were posted online

[16:37]  Diego Ibanez is Online

[16:37]  You: and these allowed people to access and combine information.

[16:37]  Geda Hax is Online

[16:37]  You: How did this happen?

[16:37]  You: It was UNPLANNED

[16:37]  You: Tim Berners-Lee with Roger Coilioiin

[16:38]  You: - both were staff prgrammers working in Geneva at CERN

[16:38]  You: had high energy particle physics jobs

[16:38]  You: wrote them

[16:39]  You: Berners-Lee was in love with his job

[16:39]  You: he created the world wide web

[16:39]  You: And on his spare time without his boss knowing

[16:39]  You: His immediate boss said "You are working on Internet - drop this American TEchnology"

[16:40]  You: And Berners-Lee wrote programs for HTML, HTTP, and URL

[16:40]  anewlife Merlin is Online

[16:40]  Luna Bliss is Offline

[16:40]  You: sorry

[16:40]  You: http - hypertext markup language, the code of web pages

[16:40]  You: html is that

[16:41]  You: http is hyper text protocol - the protocols that allow linkages between web pages - infinite ones

[16:41]  You: and URL - uniform resource locators - the web addresses you see in your browser address field associated with a numerical sequence

[16:42]  You: He finished all this in 1990

[16:42]  A group member named Jenn Hienrichs gave you PARSEC--Wednesday, February 13, 2008 LM of the Day.

[16:42]  You: And by August 1991, while at CERN, he posted

[16:43]  You: online to his BBS - bulletin board system - all this software

[16:43]  You: and instructions on how to get it free.

[16:43]  You: Are there questions thus far?

[16:43]  Bruce Flyer is Online

[16:43]  Andromeda Mesmer: No.

[16:43]  You: There was the intermediate step between Berners-Lee and the public

[16:43]  You: namely students

[16:44]  You: The Unviersity of Illinois - National Comptuer Cetner - said that's cool

[16:44]  Claryssa Schmidt: hi Bruce

[16:44]  You: and html - hypertext markup language - would be even cooler with graphics

[16:44]  Boston Hutchinson: Hi Bruce

[16:45]  Bruce Flyer: hi everyone!

[16:45]  You: And they wrote MOSAIC -

[16:45]  You: Hi Bruce!

[16:45]  Bruce Flyer: opps

[16:45]  Andromeda Mesmer: :)

[16:45]  You: MOSAIC was user friendly, and arc Andreeson and Eric Biener wrote it. - it was the first GUI browser that displayed graphics.

[16:46]  You: In 1993, they released MOSAIC online - for free, following tradition.

[16:46]  You: And a real entrepreneur saw a money-making opportunity in this.

[16:46]  You: Jim Clark, who created Silicon Graphics was bored

[16:47]  You: And in 1993, he hired Andreeson and Biner

[16:47]  You: to commercialize MOSAIC (producing it under a University license)

[16:47]  You: And they thus created Netscape

[16:47]  You: And shipped these first browser in December 1994

[16:48]  You: It was available online for fre in 1995

[16:48]  You: Microsoft saw the need for something like this urgently . . . for a brower

[16:48]  You: browser

[16:49]  You: And so they bought browser software from Spyglass, who had developed it from Tim Berners-Lee's work

[16:49]  You: And MS released Internet Explorer in 1996 - Then the whole woulrd could surf the Internet, using the Worldwide Web.

[16:50]  You: From then, Netscape and Microsoft entered into a commercail war.

[16:50]  You: In 1998 Netscape released source code from Navigator

[16:50]  You: :)

[16:51]  You: Microsoft had done enought that Netscape couldn't survive comerically.

[16:51]  You: America Online AOL bought Netwscape . . . and that was the line of development that led to the use of the web as a widey used popular medium

[16:51]  Jon Seattle is Offline

[16:52]  You: So in these last 10 minutes, let's chat a little about innovation, vis-a-vis these examples.

[16:52]  You: Perhaps Andromeda's presentation will cast light on some of these questions as well.

[16:53]  Gwyneth Llewelyn is Offline

[16:53]  You: IN what ways do each of you see individual software (or hardware) innovations recasting the development of the internet

[16:53]  You: these days, in the way that TCP/IP, USENET, FIDONET, Http, html etc have?

[16:54]  Bruce Flyer: without places like SL it would be harder for Microsoft to argue that we need Vista and 64 bit systems

[16:54]  You: Technolgoical developments do push hardware innovations, and bandwidth is an ongoing limitation

[16:55]  You: While not the work of one invidual, I think the XO - One laptop per child - costing about 180$

[16:55]  You: is doing this.

[16:55]  Boston Hutchinson: Virtual worlds and virtual reality will become the new interface, gradually replacing html

[16:55]  You: I agree, Boston

[16:55]  Brian Whiteberry is Offline

[16:56]  You: But I wonder how fast, and what the catalysts will be, like the browser was . . . in what ways are they taking off now?

[16:56]  You: and in what ways will they take off in new directions.

[16:56]  You: ... that reaches the world?

[16:56]  Boston Hutchinson: I think we will become accustomed to having a virtual presence wherever we want, and being visited by friends and colleagues in virtual reality

[16:56]  Bruce Flyer: Microsoft Surface is a possible now thing -- like the GUI was in about 1993

[16:56]  You: Yes

[16:57]  Boston Hutchinson: SL, Croquet, iRobot

[16:57]  Bruce Flyer: new thing

[16:57]  You: Negroponte wanted to produce 150 million XOs - one laptop per child by 2008

[16:57]  Boston Hutchinson: We need to be able to wear the computer

[16:57]  You: and it they will produce instead almost half a million - a huge number . . .

[16:58]  Boston Hutchinson: The XO should be replaced by something wearable too, eventually

[16:58]  You: Perhaps Boston . . . but I've heard the phrase Virtual World winter vis-a-vis current virtual worlds

[16:59]  Bruce Flyer: how worn -- as a hat with sensors to the brain?

[16:59]  You: Andormeda?

[16:59]  You: ANd SL is one of the most sophisticated virtual worlds, - why aren't more people coming in?

[16:59]  You: Rain?

[16:59]  Boston Hutchinson: VR glasses will be the start, I think

[16:59]  You: Clayryssa?

[16:59]  You: Yes Bruce - tell us about MS Surface

[16:59]  You: please

[16:59]  Boston Hutchinson: they're already available

[17:00]  Andromeda Mesmer: People get frustrated with SL, I think.

[17:00]  Boston Hutchinson: We need to put our RL lives in VR

[17:00]  Bruce Flyer: table top that interacts with objects. put your credit card on the table and drag and drop what you want to buy onto it

[17:00]  Andromeda Mesmer: I could have given up early on, because I ran into embarassing problems such as losing hair --

[17:00]  Bruce Flyer: several good videos are available about Surface Computing at Youtube

[17:00]  You: And people are . . . but perhaps we back in the browser phase with text only ... by comparison

[17:00]  Andromeda Mesmer: But I am also a determined person, and I kept at it.

[17:01]  Bruce Flyer: SL is too wild for some and too tame for others

[17:01]  You: Yes, Andromeda . . . .ease of use has had a profound effect on the adoption of internet technologies on a wide spread basis, but not in the 1970s and 80s.

[17:01]  Boston Hutchinson: There were early adopters for the WWW also, but after a decade or two, everybody's in.

[17:01]  Andromeda Mesmer: To tame !!!???

[17:02]  Bruce Flyer: i guess i don't go out enough in SL to really know what is there

[17:02]  You: I would like to have access to streaming video into SL . . .

[17:02]  Andromeda Mesmer: Bruce -- do searches -- you'd be surprised and shocked maybe.

[17:03]  Bruce Flyer: that is why i am leary about asking students to come into this world

[17:03]  You: for all of us - a series of boxes - with enough bandwidth . . .

[17:03]  Boston Hutchinson: Give it time....

[17:04]  Boston Hutchinson: You'll have streaming video, live from all users to all users

[17:04]  You: that would make this more efficient and faster . . . where we could all see each other online, either as avatar or in RL

[17:04]  You: Well, lets take a break now

[17:04]  Boston Hutchinson: fiber optics

[17:04]  You: True . . .

[17:04]  Bruce Flyer: but we don't choose to use voice -- do we really want to see each other?

[17:04]  You: And come back in around 10 minutes . . .

[17:04]  Gwyneth Llewelyn is Online

[17:05]  Boston Hutchinson: and theInternet neutrality (is that the name?) law

[17:05]  Andromeda Mesmer: Time to grab a bite :)

[17:05]  You: the internet opens all kinds of ways to choose how to communicate - some will

[17:05]  You: :)

[17:05]  Boston Hutchinson: Bruce, we could choose to be real, pure avatar, or stylized (altered real)

[17:05]  Bruce Flyer: if i walk around the island once will i get thin?

[17:05]  You: So, Andromeda will present after the break . . . looking forward to it

[17:06]  Boston Hutchinson: I bet all these choices willbesupported

[17:06]  You: Bailenson and Yee at Stanford are exploring some of these questions

[17:06]  You: See you soon . . .

[17:06]  You: in the Daedelus project, for one. . .

[17:06]  Boston Hutchinson: If you're strappedinto a motion-base simulator and you walk around Berkman, you will lose weight.

[17:06]  Jagger Valeeva is Online

[17:07]  Jagger Valeeva is Offline

[17:07]  Rain Ninetails: /away

[17:07]  You: True . . .:)

[17:08]  Andromeda Mesmer: Some people are still afraid of the new technologies, and that fear keeps them away.

[17:08]  Andromeda Mesmer: Out of SL.

[17:08]  Claryssa Schmidt: or they get stuck in Orientation Island

[17:08]  Gwyneth Llewelyn is Offline

[17:08]  Boston Hutchinson: For me, it's lack of full reality, lack of many things that are present in RL.

[17:10]  Boston Hutchinson: If everything on the Internet were here in SL, and I could hang out with my distant RL friends with something more like real life, I'd spend more time here.

[17:11]  Diego Ibanez is Offline

[17:12]  Bruce Flyer: have you all seen the platforms with chairs over there?

[17:13]  Bruce Flyer: maybe Harvard anticipates teaching multiple classes at the same time here

[17:14]  You: Yes . . . we might move over to those chairs at some point.

[17:14]  You: The circle form might be a better fit...

[17:14]  You: Andromeda, are you back?

[17:15]  You: Would you like to stand up here? Or head over to the chairs close by?

[17:15]  Boston Hutchinson: I wonder if the crashes here two weeks ago were partly due to overload in the sandbox.

[17:15]  You: I agree, Boston, that 'reality' will bring people in

[17:15]  Andromeda Mesmer: Let me close some windows -- I'll go up and stand at the front.

[17:16]  You: Ok . . . A...

[17:16]  You: I didn't see many people in the sandbox then . .

[17:17]  Gwyneth Llewelyn is Online

[17:17]  Krysss Galatea is Offline

[17:18]  Andromeda Mesmer: I'd like to start off by discussiong old predictions related to the computer field by focusing on one book by Robert Heinlein

[17:18]  You: Have you crashed, A?

[17:19]  You: Great . . .

[17:19]  Andromeda Mesmer: Having a proble with freezing.

[17:19]  You: Which old predictions?

[17:20]  Geda Hax is Online

[17:20]  Andromeda Mesmer: Then go to some items of the current scene, and end woth some predictions for the future -- what Charles Stross has written about.

[17:20]  Bruce Flyer: Hi Geda!

[17:21]  Andromeda Mesmer: Hi! I was hoping you would come, Geda!

[17:21]  You: Hello Geda!

[17:21]  Andromeda Mesmer: Crystal balls are notoriously cloudy when examined in retrospect, but some crystal balls are less cloudy than others.

[17:21]  Rain Ninetails: :)

[17:21]  You: Yes

[17:22]  Andromeda Mesmer: A few science fiction writers have a not bad records. Various agencies in the US government have noticed this, and occasionally invite science fiction writers to conferences for new insights.

[17:22]  You: :)

[17:23]  Andromeda Mesmer: Robert Heinlein was a prominent SF writer, immensely knowledgeable, and quite well educated, who was continually studying and who was in contact with top researchers world wide.

[17:24]  You: Which predictions of his fascinated you?

[17:24]  Andromeda Mesmer: In his stories - he tried to be as realistic as possible, and looked carefully at the trends that he could see.

[17:26]  You: the hard sciene and engineering plausibility of his work is fascinating

[17:26]  Andromeda Mesmer: In 1965 he came out with a book, MOON IS A HARSH MISTRESS - set in 2075 and 2076, when moon colonists, of which there are 3 million, stage a succesful revolt and win independence from earth.

[17:27]  You: :)

[17:27]  Andromeda Mesmer: So it is worthwhile looking at what he got right -- what has now come to pass, and what just did not happen.

[17:28]  Andromeda Mesmer: He saw computers as being indispensible to life -- computer control of water, sewage, light, heating, air conditioning.

[17:28]  You: Some of his key themes explore the importance of individual liberty and self-reliance, the obligation individuals owe to their societies - does this book highlight this theme?

[17:28]  Krysss Galatea is Online

[17:28]  You: Yes

[17:28]  Patrio Graysmark is Online

[17:29]  Andromeda Mesmer: Yes it does -- and also what you do for basic survival -- when cornered. The reason that the colonists decide to revolt is that their natural resources are being depleted.

[17:29]  Bruce Flyer: sounds as if he saw computers managing society as the brain manages automatic activities within a person's body

[17:29]  Teresa Cinquetti is Offline

[17:29]  Andromeda Mesmer: The projection is that they will start to starve, if they do not cut off trade with earth.

[17:30]  Andromeda Mesmer: In this case, in the book, Mike, a huge computer, became self-aware, conscious, and became a friend of the lunar computer programmer who looked after him. Then Mike got involved in planning and executed the revolution.

[17:30]  Veeyawn Spoonhammer is Online

[17:31]  You: Another key theme includes the tendency of society to repress non-conformist thought -

[17:31]  Veeyawn Spoonhammer is Offline

[17:31]  You: How do computing technologies offer ways to get freedom from the earth for him?

[17:32]  Andromeda Mesmer: Yes -- Heinlein was raised in the Bible Belt, and broke with those ideas completely. In another of his books, he writes about a religious dictartorship in the US.

[17:32]  You: :)

[17:32]  Veeyawn Spoonhammer is Online

[17:33]  Andromeda Mesmer: Mike the computer has a complete repository of knowledge available from books on warfar, psychology, politics.

[17:33]  You: So, do alternative networks - Mike and the programer in this case - provide ways to re-envison world views?

[17:33]  Andromeda Mesmer: So he helps plan the revolution.

[17:33]  Andromeda Mesmer: Once he realizes that his new friends could die, if something is not done.

[17:34]  Andromeda Mesmer: Well, the book presents views of future developments, as Heinlein saw them in the 1960's.

[17:34]  Andromeda Mesmer: There are no PC's -- only big machines.

[17:34]  You: (The Internet certainly offers interesting ways of reconceving societial possibilites, as well). He was very prescient.

[17:34]  Andromeda Mesmer: There are terminals via phone lines.

[17:35]  Boston Hutchinson: Intelligent computers in 2075 sounds plausible, but maybe much sooner and PC sized.

[17:35]  Andromeda Mesmer: The degree of computer use -- for example in banking -- he saw that.

[17:35]  Boston Hutchinson: 3 million people on the moon looks doubtful. :)

[17:36]  Gwyneth Llewelyn is Offline

[17:36]  Andromeda Mesmer: Computers being absolutely indispensible -- or at least, ONE computer -- to maintain life. Today, we rrely on a few large ones and very many small ones.

[17:36]  You: Computer agency is an exciting possibility, and the Interent may analogously - to Mike - offer new forms of agency

[17:36]  You: to its users.

[17:36]  Bruce Flyer: 3 million avatars?

[17:36]  You decline THE DISTILLERY - A Gos & Silvers, Rich Idiot (208, 205, 22) from A group member named Erik Silverstar.

[17:36]  You: Interesting A

[17:37]  Andromeda Mesmer: 3 million people -- population of ex-convicts, political dissidents, and their descendants -- and everybody having a fairly long lifespan, unless they get killed in accidents.

[17:37]  You: (10 million or so avatars have signed up for SL, and SL says there are 30,000 to 50,000 in world at any given time).

[17:38]  You: :)

[17:38]  Andromeda Mesmer: That is correct -- a high of 57,000 -- roughly double of what it was one year ago.

[17:38]  Boston Hutchinson: Current thinking is that we colonize Mars before the Moon.

[17:39]  Andromeda Mesmer: Whether it will double again, and how many years like that -- impossible to say.

[17:39]  Andromeda Mesmer: Possible to colonize Mars first -- friendlier environment, but much harder to get to.

[17:39]  You: What parallels do you see with SL, and what does Heinlein's vision suggest that might be realized in virutal worlds, for example.

[17:39]  Andromeda Mesmer: In Heinlein's book, everything gets recycled in order to maintain life.

[17:40]  Bruce Flyer: can any planet without a magnetic field around it be human-friendly?

[17:40]  Andromeda Mesmer: The source of water is old remnants of ice meteors.

[17:40]  Annette Paster is Online

[17:40]  Boston Hutchinson: It seems that Moon dust is a huge problem. No erosion, so its sharp. Probably carcinogenic in the lungs. Gets into equipment and damages things.

[17:40]  Andromeda Mesmer: People live underground -- sometimes far underground.

[17:41]  Bruce Flyer: ah

[17:41]  Andromeda Mesmer: This is more than adequate to protect them from radiation.

[17:41]  Boston Hutchinson: Without a magnetic field, I guess you need radiation shielding.

[17:41]  You: I see. How does Stross's vision articulate with Heinlein's vis-a-vis computing technologies?

[17:41]  Andromeda Mesmer: They go onto the surface only if necessary, and usualy when it is dark.

[17:42]  Andromeda Mesmer: There is also some kind of treatment for exposure to radiation, but that is not specified.

[17:42]  Andromeda Mesmer: Anyway -- back to what I was going to say --

[17:42]  Andromeda Mesmer: Heinlein did not forsee the miniaturization of today, or the internet at all.

[17:43]  Andromeda Mesmer: Or synethetic world, or the huge mult-player computer games.

[17:43]  You: Although computing was ubiquitous in another way . . .

[17:44]  Andromeda Mesmer: He did expect space colonies, and would have been very disappoined not to see them by now -- he believed strongly that space colonies were essential to human survival.

[17:44]  You: (You have about 6 minutes left, A) :)

[17:44]  Andromeda Mesmer: The earth was just too fragile, and subject to problems like giant asteriods that killed off the dionsaur.

[17:44]  Andromeda Mesmer: OK. Time limit noted.

[17:45]  Andromeda Mesmer: I can't finish -- so I will just say something from the end of the presentation.

[17:45]  Boston Hutchinson: Sounds like he was thinking about the problem the same way as we see it today.

[17:45]  You: Yes

[17:45]  Andromeda Mesmer: SF writer Charlie Stross is at the SF convention, Boskone, which is in the vicinity of Boston -- he will be in Boston and area all week, starting today.

[17:46]  CivilE Writer is Online

[17:46]  Andromeda Mesmer: He will also make a presentation before the MIT SF group in Boston. So -- anybody in the area has a chance to hear him and talk to him.

[17:46]  You: :)

[17:46]  Andromeda Mesmer: He has friends at MIT.

[17:46]  Boston Hutchinson: interesting...

[17:47]  Andromeda Mesmer: So that is the severely shortened part of what I was going to say about Charlie Stross.

[17:47]  Andromeda Mesmer: The other person that I would have liked to talk about is Dr. Steve Mann.

[17:47]  You: he specializes in specialise in hard science fiction and space opera . . .

[17:47]  Andromeda Mesmer: Pictures of him are here -

[17:47]  Bruce Flyer: yes, in Toronto i think

[17:48]  Daisyblue Hefferman is Offline

[17:48]  You: yes

[17:48]  Bruce Flyer: visions of borg?

[17:48]  Andromeda Mesmer: Sorry -- paste of site is not working.

[17:49]  Andromeda Mesmer: Lynch did a movie about him -- he used to resemble the Borg of Star Trek, but now he looks like a regular guy with darkened glasses.

[17:49]  Bruce Flyer: i am sure he must be tenured

[17:49]  Boston Hutchinson: is this it:

[17:49]  Andromeda Mesmer: He has come up with the term SOUSVEILLANCE, and has written about this with outhers.

[17:49]  Andromeda Mesmer: SOUS - French word for under.

[17:49]  Boston Hutchinson: http://wearcam.org/steve.html

[17:49]  Andromeda Mesmer: SUR -- over

[17:50]  You: he's been involved in wearable computer apparatus since at least the early 1980s.

[17:50]  Andromeda Mesmer: This is the public looking at those above it -- motorists looking at politce, audience looking at politicians as in the famous Macaca Moment.

[17:50]  Andromeda Mesmer: One man videotaping the beating of Rodney King --

[17:50]  You: :)

[17:50]  Perry Proudhon is Online

[17:51]  Andromeda Mesmer: How much time, Aphilo?

[17:51]  Andromeda Mesmer: Videos of undercover police provocateurs -- one holding a rock -- at an anti-globalization demonstration in Quebec.

[17:51]  You: Let's look at Steve Mann a little more next week . . .

[17:51]  You: He's been involved in a significant number of innovations . . .

[17:52]  Andromeda Mesmer: OK. i have a lot to say about him, and I hope somebody here -- Boston? can go hear Charlie Stross.

[17:52]  You: Thanks you, A!

[17:52]  Boston Hutchinson: I need to read him first!

[17:52]  Andromeda Mesmer: thank you. My first SL speech -- sorry I didn't get the timing better.

[17:53]  You decline Backintyme Bookstore from A group member named Raymond Frog.

[17:53]  Boston Hutchinson: That was great.

[17:53]  Bruce Flyer: few people can say they have actually taught in SL at this time

[17:53]  Andromeda Mesmer: ACCELERANDO is online.

[17:53]  You: Of the innovations that we've heard about this evening,

[17:53]  Boston Hutchinson: It seems to take a long time to deliver alecture by typing!

[17:53]  You: including the envisioning process that sci fi writers engage in,

[17:54]  Boston Hutchinson: I downloaded Accelerando, but have only read a few pages so far...

[17:54]  You: and which Boston has also touched upon this evening....

[17:54]  You: which make it into public use

[17:54]  Andromeda Mesmer: There are several ways of reading it -- I just read online without downloading - since I have a permanent connection via cable, and a set monthly fee.

[17:54]  You: I want to ask also, who here is writing science fiction?

[17:55]  Boston Hutchinson: I started a sci fi novel in the early eighties, but quit about half way through

[17:55]  Geda Hax is Online

[17:55]  Andromeda Mesmer: Stross' latest book, HALTING STATE - is about a bank robbery in a synethetic world -- the bank assets are backed by the Bank of Scotland

[17:55]  Andromeda Mesmer: Not me -- i just read it :)

[17:55]  You: Boston also shared with me some useful ideas about avatar agency relating to what I've explored in a number of this classes . . .

[17:56]  You: :)

[17:56]  You: ...some of which I'll share with you at some point soon . . .

[17:56]  You: I'm curious to explore the envisioning process vis-a-vis

[17:57]  You: realizations of them . . . which sci fi and Steven Mann both engage in, Mann being actively engaged in usable hardware and software apparati, to this day . . .

[17:58]  You: Agency of computers - and Heinlein's Mike had agency, - is a very exciting ai problem . . . but also one that with innovation and conversation, may well become

[17:58]  You: realizable sooner than later . . .

[17:58]  You: ... perhaps through a kind of conversational jamming . . .

[17:59]  You: Let's continue to think about some of these questions over the next few weeks.

[17:59]  Boston Hutchinson: Even Ray Kurzweil thinks it will take decades.

[17:59]  You: Next week I'd like to continue with the development of the Internet . . . and Mann's innvations, to start . . .

[18:00]  Bruce Flyer: the problem with meeting on a platform is that no one will look for us there

[18:00]  You: And he has a track record at predicting.

[18:00]  Boston Hutchinson: Well, he's predicted that he will live for thousands of years.

[18:01]  You: I think the development of the Internet was relatively unpredicted, although Marshall McLuhan did envision a global network

[18:01]  You: in the 1960s

[18:01]  Boston Hutchinson: And that Bill Gates will still be the richest man in the world in 2100

[18:01]  Andromeda Mesmer: Stross refers to the breakup of Microsoft and the rise of the aggressive "Baby Bills" :)

[18:01]  You: And TCP/IP, ARPANET, USENET, Fidonet, http, html and url were all far-reaching innvoations that transformed all aspects of socioeconomic life

[18:01]  Boston Hutchinson: I think he's become overly optimistic about his ability to predict.

[18:02]  You: and are continuing to be built upon . . .

[18:02]  Bruce Flyer: if i am to live to 2100 i better get some rest now :-)

[18:02]  Andromeda Mesmer: No.

[18:02]  Boston Hutchinson: It seems like they won't have to break up Microsoft.

[18:02]  Boston Hutchinson: Apple and Linux may make overtake them.

[18:03]  Bruce Flyer is Offline

[18:03]  Claryssa Schmidt: or Google

[18:03]  Andromeda Mesmer: That business about long lifespan is ineresting -- it has actually affected peoples behaviour --

[18:03]  You: or how virtual worlds will . . .

[18:03]  Boston Hutchinson: Croquet maybe.

[18:03]  You: We'll see if the XO transforms the world . . .

[18:03]  Andromeda Mesmer: If they think they might live to a time when medical advances will keep them alive for a LONG time -- they start behaving very prudently and carefully.

[18:04]  Andromeda Mesmer: I was told, that was how people who believe in cryonics were actiging --

[18:04]  Joe Petrel is Online

[18:04]  You: For next week, perhaps we might all mention some innovations that we think have promise to be transforming . . .

[18:05]  Boston Hutchinson: I don't see how people observing their own gradual deterioration (from 40 or 50) can expect or even want to live so long.

[18:05]  You: Plug and play bodies, apart from the brain seem feasible.

[18:05]  Andromeda Mesmer: Oh, they expect to see reversals in their state of health --

[18:05]  Andromeda Mesmer: I can mention some of that next week.

[18:06]  You: great

[18:06]  Boston Hutchinson: Very interesting.

[18:06]  You: I think cohorts of people in their 90s are living much longer

[18:07]  You: and will potentially live as a group into their 100s.

[18:07]  Jagger Valeeva is Online

[18:07]  Andromeda Mesmer: Yes they are living longer. There are more super centennarians around now.

[18:08]  You: The upper documented oldest person is 121 years old, I think. Does anyone know otherwise?

[18:08]  Andromeda Mesmer: Jeanne Calumet -- I think -- was the oldest woman with documentation

[18:08]  Geda Hax is Online

[18:08]  You: Yes . . . and how will information technology help in the aggregate?

[18:08]  Brian Whiteberry is Online

[18:09]  Boston Hutchinson: Unfortunately, the ability to learn seems to decline long before that.

[18:09]  You: And what is aging is not an easy question to answer definitively.

[18:09]  Boston Hutchinson: Try learning a language at 50, for example.

[18:09]  You: I think it depends on individuals.

[18:10]  You: It's very possible, and empirical research shows that it's helpful for the mind and brain.

[18:10]  Andromeda Mesmer: It turns out that the brain is a lot more plastic than previously thought.

[18:10]  You: It takes a degree of discipline, and perhaps learning a musical instrument may be more enjoyable.

[18:10]  You: Yes, A

[18:10]  Andromeda Mesmer: I think a lot of people decide that they can't learn -- without trying --

[18:10]  Boston Hutchinson: I tried that at 50.

[18:11]  Andromeda Mesmer: Or -- they set up conditions such that it is hard to learn.

[18:11]  Andromeda Mesmer: It may take longer to learn when you are older.

[18:11]  Boston Hutchinson: Talent would be helpful for musical instruments!

[18:11]  Boston Hutchinson: Yes, it takes longer.

[18:11]  Andromeda Mesmer: But I once spent 40 hoursw teaching a man of 70 how to use an Applice computer

[18:11]  You: Perhaps it depends on context, Boston . . .try living in a different country and attending classes, using the internet for learning also

[18:11]  Andromeda Mesmer: He had been given up on in dispair by his friends -- and he did not expect success -- but he WAS persistent.

[18:11]  Boston Hutchinson: Apples come naturally.

[18:12]  Andromeda Mesmer: The OLD applies? Not exactly ...

[18:12]  Boston Hutchinson: But I've been wondering whether my 85 year old parents could swith to Apple.

[18:12]  Daisyblue Hefferman is Online

[18:12]  Andromeda Mesmer: I had to make phone calls to his friend, who gave him the Applie -- to ask how it worked.

[18:13]  Andromeda Mesmer: I think if they want to learn, they can learn. There are compuer classes at some old age homes in Toronto.

[18:13]  You: Yes, that transition is difficult for some - what's your experience with your parents learning, Boston?

[18:13]  Andromeda Mesmer: I know one story of a person who wanted very badly to watch the TV series Bablyon 5.

[18:13]  Daisyblue Hefferman is Offline

[18:13]  Andromeda Mesmer: So -- she learned how to set the VCR --- what many people are frightened of doing.

[18:14]  Daisyblue Hefferman is Online

[18:14]  You: And when will computing become very intuitive?

[18:14]  Boston Hutchinson: Nick Negroponte used to tell a story about being unable to operate his VCR.

 

[18:14]  Boston Hutchinson: He relied on his son to do it.

[18:15]  Diego Ibanez is Online

[18:15]  Boston Hutchinson: He said his VCR had a great user interface, until it left for college.

[18:15]  Andromeda Mesmer: LOL

[18:15]  Andromeda Mesmer: Well, it is easier for Negroponte to do it that way -- use his son.

[18:16]  You: Is his son like a computer?

[18:16]  Boston Hutchinson: I can't figure out how to use a VCR either

[18:16]  Andromeda Mesmer: It may be -- people are afraid of looking ridiculous -- possibly one reason why they only stay in SL a short time. Ridiculous appearance -- accidents.

[18:16]  Boston Hutchinson: But my kids think I'm a geek, so they want me to do it for them.

[18:16]  Boston Hutchinson: Fortunately VCRs are obsolete.

 

[18:16]  You: Is his son like a computer?

[18:16]  Boston Hutchinson: I can't figure out how to use a VCR either

[18:16]  Andromeda Mesmer: It may be -- people are afraid of looking ridiculous -- possibly one reason why they only stay in SL a short time. Ridiculous appearance -- accidents.

[18:16]  Boston Hutchinson: But my kids think I'm a geek, so they want me to do it for them.

[18:16]  Boston Hutchinson: Fortunately VCRs are obsolete.

[18:17]  Connecting to in-world Voice Chat...

[18:18]  Disconnected from in-world Voice Chat

[18:18]  Boston Hutchinson: When I get a new gadget, my first impulse is to file the directions without reading them.

[18:18]  You: Are we computers, metaphorically?

[18:18]  Boston Hutchinson: That may be the key to popularizing SL--when you don't have to read the directions, everybody will want to be here.

[18:19]  Boston Hutchinson: Of course we're computers, Aphilo!

[18:19]  Boston Hutchinson: No metaphor involved.

[18:20]  You: What kind of computers are we? - experiential, feeling, thinking, remembering, imagining, sentient, networking, idiosyncratic, embodied, procreating computers

[18:20]  Boston Hutchinson: Just the run-of-the-mill computer. Made by the billions.

[18:20]  Andromeda Mesmer: Some built-in software -- like a fear of snakes -- actually shared with the great apes.

[18:21]  You: In today's understanding of computers, many of these processes are not realizable.

[18:21]  You: Yes, Boston and Andromeda . . .

[18:22]  You: Are we conscious, culture-bearing, distributed input-think/feel-output bodymind systems that can have babies and can self-program?

[18:22]  Andromeda Mesmer: I am a special computer, one of a kind. Many traits shared with others though :)

[18:23]  Veeyawn Spoonhammer is Offline

[18:23]  You: I'll post this transcript online, which you can get to from here - http://socinfotech.pbwiki.com on Feb 13, 2008

[18:24]  Boston Hutchinson: Thanks

[18:24]  Whitelight Christiansen is Online

[18:24]  You: Good question . . .

[18:24]  You: See you next week.

[18:24]  Boston Hutchinson: Great class.

[18:24]  Boston Hutchinson: Enjoyed your presentation, Andromeda.

[18:24]  Rain Ninetails: :)

[18:24]  Veeyawn Spoonhammer is Online

[18:24]  Andromeda Mesmer: I got about 1/3 through it

[18:24]  Boston Hutchinson: Hope to hear more and continue the discussion next week.

[18:25]  You: Nice to converse with you. I enjoyed your presentation very much, Andromeda, too. Thank you.