Society and Information Technology in Second Life

Wednesdays, January 9 - July 30, 2008, 4-6, SLT/PT, 7-9 pm ET

on Berkman island in Second Life - http://slurl.com/secondlife/Berkman/114/70/25

Course homepage - http://socinfotech.pbwiki.com

 

Instructor: Scott MacLeod (not on Harvard's faculty) = Aphilo Aarde (in Second Life)

http://scottmacleod.com/papers.htm

 

 

Feb 6 2008 Soc and Info Tech class transcript

 

 

[15:59]  Boston Hutchinson: Hi Aphilo

[16:00]  You: Hi Boston

[16:00]  You: How are you?

[16:00]  Boston Hutchinson: OK, and you?

[16:00]  Boston Hutchinson: Hi Rain

[16:00]  You: Ok, thanks.

[16:00]  You: Hi Rain

[16:00]  Rain Ninetails: Hi Boston.

[16:00]  You: How are you?

[16:00]  Rain Ninetails: Hi Aphilo

[16:02]  Rain Ninetails: ok :)

[16:02]  You: Let's wait a little while longer for people to arrive.

[16:03]  Rain Ninetails nods: Andromeda might not make it because of hte bad weather.

[16:03]  You: Do you have voice yet, Rain?

[16:03]  Xirconnia Morphett is Online

[16:03]  Rain Ninetails: no

[16:03]  You: And can you see and hear video in SL?

[16:04]  Rain Ninetails: the audio stream works but I am not sure about the video.

[16:04]  You: I see. I'm curious how compelling or useful for you these technologies might be for you, looking ahead.

[16:05]  Rain Ninetails: mm

[16:05]  You: What would engage you to get voice capabilities?

[16:06]  You: Brent, for you, was having the ability to speak significant in your getting a new computer?

[16:06]  Rain Ninetails: hee hee I need a better computer.

[16:07]  Boston Hutchinson: Well, I actually got a headset for $10 before getting the new computer, so it wasn't really a factor.

[16:07]  Geda Hax: Hi there guys

[16:07]  You: One interesting aspect about the Information age is how it gives us all a voice, potentially, and especially metaphorically.

[16:07]  You: Hi Geda!

[16:07]  Rain Ninetails: :)

[16:07]  Geda Hax: :)

[16:07]  Daisyblue Hefferman is Offline

[16:07]  Boston Hutchinson: I had tried a microphone, but it didn't seem to work -- probably a problem with my old audio card or software.

[16:07]  Boston Hutchinson: Hi Geda!

[16:08]  You: To the degree that we engage that, and with literal voice capabilities, seems partly influenced by the technologies.

[16:08]  You: ... themselves.

[16:08]  Boston Hutchinson: I haven't really tried voice with my Mac. The microphone is on top and pointed at the ceiling.

[16:09]  Boston Hutchinson: It must pick up a lot of noise

[16:09]  You: So did you get a new computer, partly for reasons of voice enabling??

[16:09]  You: I see.

[16:09]  You: Geda, to what degree do you use voice in SL?

[16:09]  Geda Hax: hmmm

[16:10]  Daisyblue Hefferman is Online

[16:10]  Boston Hutchinson: No, the headset worked great on the PC. It was USB, bypassing the microphone jack that didn't work.

[16:10]  Geda Hax: very often

[16:10]  You: ... or with the Internet?

[16:10]  Geda Hax: and I am not even using a headset ...just with my laptop mic

[16:10]  You: It's such a unique capability for people, among other species, that it's limited use online

[16:11]  You: seems curious.

[16:11]  Boston Hutchinson: In the PC world, the technology is amess.

[16:11]  Gwyneth Llewelyn is Offline

[16:11]  You: Moving to voice digitally isn't happening vvery quickly in virutal worlds...

[16:11]  You: I see you talking Geda, but don't hear you.

[16:12]  Geda Hax: well not talking its pretty much the sound around where I am

[16:12]  Boston Hutchinson: The hardware and software don't always work, or require toomuch effort to configure.

[16:12]  Rain Ninetails: I am just happy if I can get it not to crash.

[16:12]  You: I've had success using voice on PCs, but headaches outweigh benefits.

[16:12]  Geda Hax: guys its not that hard , have you enabled your voice suite?

[16:13]  You: And in Croquet, Boston?

[16:14]  Boston Hutchinson: Mine's on. I hear noise when you appear to be speaking, but not a voice.

[16:14]  Geda Hax: sometimes you just have to relog a couple of times to keep the settings

[16:14]  Geda Hax: once you disable it , it sounds you have to do all again

[16:14]  You: Where is voice in open source virtual worlds?

[16:15]  Boston Hutchinson: Theoretically, they have it, but like everything about Croquet, it works in the university if yo have some programmers to set it up, not in the real world.

[16:15]  Geda Hax: it must be my typing Boston

[16:15]  Geda Hax: now there is someone talking close to me

[16:15]  Beyers Sellers is Offline

[16:15]  You: Your voice is only very slightly more distinct Geda.

[16:16]  Geda Hax: can you guys hear me now?

[16:16]  Boston Hutchinson: Yes, now I can.

[16:16]  Geda Hax: cool

[16:16]  Xirconnia Morphett is Offline

[16:16]  Geda Hax: its capturing all the noises here too....sorry for that

[16:16]  You: Boston, would you tell us more about C, starting from where you stopped last week?

[16:17]  You: Yes, and no, Geda . . .

[16:17]  Boston Hutchinson: Sure. If I can guess at where I left off.

[16:17]  You: Great . . .

[16:17]  Geda Hax: well if its bothering please , let me know so I can disable it ;)

[16:17]  Boston Hutchinson: I think I was about to start describing the distributed processing technology.

[16:18]  Boston Hutchinson: Croquet runs on the computers of the users, the avatars.

[16:18]  Boston Hutchinson: There are no servers as in SL.

[16:18]  You: It's not bothersome at all, Geda . . . keep trying, maybe the voice 'weather 'will improve . . .

[16:19]  You: Great . . .

[16:19]  Boston Hutchinson: This has some advantages.

[16:19]  Boston Hutchinson: The first advantage is cost.

[16:19]  You: Yes . . .

[16:20]  Boston Hutchinson: It doesn't cost anything to run a sim in Croquet.

[16:20]  Xirconnia Morphett is Online

[16:20]  Boston Hutchinson: Linden sells land and charges maintenance at least partly because they have to run a server farm.

[16:20]  You: Yes

[16:21]  Boston Hutchinson: Each island requires a server (or share of a server) costing many dollars per month for power and maintenance.

[16:21]  Boston Hutchinson: and rent, etc.

[16:22]  Geda Hax: I wish some big company bought LL so some serious investiments could be done

[16:22]  Boston Hutchinson: Since you run Croquet on the computer you use to access it, your own PC, Mac, or linux box, there is no server to pay for, so Croquet is inherently cheaper to operate.

[16:22]  You: Yes

[16:23]  Boston Hutchinson: If this class were held in Croquet, we would be meeting in a world on one of our computers. All of our computers would be running identical copies of thatworld.

[16:24]  Boston Hutchinson: Every action on every computer is coordinated with all the othercomputers.

[16:24]  You: (Shall we try one week?)

[16:24]  Geda Hax is in

[16:24]  Boston Hutchinson: Actually, Geda, that's one of the problems with Croquet--there's no big company, not even a small company.

[16:24]  Boston Hutchinson: So everything is a bit disorganized.

[16:25]  Geda Hax: I hear you

[16:25]  Boston Hutchinson: There are many academic projects--a Spanish class, some museum projects, a lot of elementary education, etc.

[16:26]  You: (Or even concurrently with SL?)

[16:26]  Boston Hutchinson: But each world is hosted on a LAN, as far as I can see, not on the Internet.

[16:27]  Sean18 McCarey is Offline

[16:27]  Boston Hutchinson: I don't think we can meet in Croquet, Aphilo, because there's no working world to which we all (or maybe even any of us) has access.

[16:27]  You: (But must be accessed over the Internet, in part)

[16:27]  You: (and the one we met in?)

[16:27]  Boston Hutchinson: The world we visited once via the Internet seems to be down now.

[16:28]  Boston Hutchinson: I haven't been able to get there in weeks.

[16:28]  You: (Let's see if we can explore this option - sorry for interrupting).

[16:29]  Mariamo Babii is Online

[16:29]  Boston Hutchinson: Anyway, somebody needs to build and describe how to use an Internet access kit that would make it easy for one of us to start up a session and invite the other class members to participate.

[16:30]  Boston Hutchinson: If we were on a LAN, it would be easy. I'll describe that process.

[16:30]  Boston Hutchinson: Basically, any one of us could download a copy of a world (called an "image" in Croquet) and load it.

[16:30]  Mondrian Lykin is Online

[16:31]  Boston Hutchinson: We could modify it if we wanted, for example by adding a whiteboard with shared text.

[16:31]  Krysss Galatea is Online

[16:31]  Boston Hutchinson: That addition takes only a few seconds to build.

[16:32]  Boston Hutchinson: We would invide the others to join by sending our IP address and a code number generated by the software, called the router address (if I remember correctly), and the world name.

[16:33]  Boston Hutchinson: Everybody could then connect.

[16:33]  Boston Hutchinson: In the version I've used, our initial avatars would all be white rabbits (as in Alice in Wonderland).

[16:34]  Boston Hutchinson: Other versions of Croquet have more complex avatars, including gesture capabilities.

[16:34]  Boston Hutchinson: The program would load on all our computers aqnd run identically.

[16:35]  Champler Snook is Online

[16:36]  Boston Hutchinson: When one of us attempted to do something, a command would go over the network,

[16:36]  You: Yes

[16:36]  Boston Hutchinson: a single computer (any one of them) would run a software module called the "router".

[16:37]  Boston Hutchinson: The router receives all the commands and time stamps them and resends them, so that every computer executes all the actions in the same order.

[16:37]  Luna Bliss is Offline

[16:38]  Brian Whiteberry is Offline

[16:38]  You: (so no intermediate servers and one of our computers starts to take on more router functions).

[16:38]  Boston Hutchinson: Since the maximum Internet distance (at the speed of light) between computers arount the world is about 130 milliseconds (if I remember correctly)

[16:39]  Boston Hutchinson: there is enough time to get these commands and send them back almost before anybody notices.

[16:39]  You: Yes

[16:39]  Boston Hutchinson: In practice, it works great on a LAN, and there is a little lag for anybody on the Internet located a long way from the router.

[16:40]  You: (so bandwidth is an ongoing limitation, as it has been almost since the beginning of the Internet).

[16:40]  Boston Hutchinson: So everything happens in the same order, at the same virtual time on all the computers, but is computed separately on each computer.

[16:41]  You: MMmm

[16:41]  Boston Hutchinson: That's the key to Croquet.

[16:41]  Second Life: Your region will restart in 5 minutes and 0 seconds for maintenance.

[16:41]  Geda Hax: oops

[16:41]  Geda Hax: restarting

[16:41]  Boston Hutchinson: Uh Oh. The restart again.

[16:41]  Boston Hutchinson: Should we move to MIT?

[16:41]  You: tied to linguistic expression?

[16:41]  Geda Hax: ok

[16:42]  You: or C?

[16:42]  Boston Hutchinson: MIT Main, MIT (92, 98, 24)

[16:42]  Geda Hax: hmm

[16:42]  You: See you there . . .

[16:42]  Geda Hax: do you have the surl

[16:42]  Geda Hax: ?

[16:42]  Connecting to in-world Voice Chat...

[16:42]  Connected

[16:42]  Sean18 McCarey is Online

[16:43]  You: Hello on MIT

[16:43]  Geda Hax: hello

[16:43]  Geda Hax: that other lady is still there

[16:44]  Boston Hutchinson: I thought I had figured out how to text the SURL, but apparently it didn't quite work.

[16:44]  You: and no longer in my friends list - I added her last week . . .

[16:44]  Diego Ibanez is Online

[16:44]  Geda Hax: hmm

[16:44]  Geda Hax: let me paste it in our group

[16:44]  Sean18 McCarey is Offline

[16:45]  Boston Hutchinson: http://slurl.com/secondlife/MIT/128/128/0

[16:45]  Sean18 McCarey is Online

[16:45]  Boston Hutchinson: now I remeber, just too late

[16:45]  Krysss Galatea is Online

[16:46]  Boston Hutchinson: We can probably get back to Berkman in a few minutes

[16:46]  Sean18 McCarey is Offline

[16:47]  You: OK . . . Hello Rain . . .

[16:47]  You have offered friendship to Rain Ninetails

[16:47]  Rain Ninetails: the seach was not finding anything in Berkman.:)

[16:47]  Sean18 McCarey is Online

[16:47]  Eshi Otawara is Online

[16:47]  Boston Hutchinson: So, should we continue with Croquet?

[16:47]  You: Yes, let's . . . .

[16:48]  Geda Hax nods

[16:48]  Boston Hutchinson: Does anybody have questions about the technology?

[16:48]  anewlife Merlin is Online

[16:48]  Geda Hax: ®

[16:48]  Rain Ninetails: does it have "no copy" things?

[16:48]  Geda Hax: sorry ...rebaking textures

[16:49]  Boston Hutchinson: Not that I know of.

[16:49]  Boston Hutchinson: In fact, you can download the worlds and do whatever you want with them

[16:49]  Boston Hutchinson: It's mostly open-source.

[16:50]  Rain Ninetails: here some things can be "no transfer" too

[16:50]  Boston Hutchinson: It might need some prperty rules to be practical for a mass market.

[16:50]  Rain Ninetails: mm

[16:50]  Boston Hutchinson: Currently, you can teleport into somebody's world and do anything you want.

[16:50]  Geda Hax: thats very interesting Boston

[16:50]  Boston Hutchinson: including, add protals and whole new worlds,

[16:51]  Geda Hax: this interoperability is what most big companies are after

[16:51]  Boston Hutchinson: or delete the entire world, I suspect.

[16:51]  Boston Hutchinson: It's really designed by and for academics.

[16:51]  Geda Hax: ( forgive me if I mispelt that big word)

[16:51]  Boston Hutchinson: It's not ready for the Internet and griefers, and all.

[16:52]  Geda Hax: well .....I am sure this will capture lots of investiments

[16:52]  Boston Hutchinson: There is one company, Quak, in Palo Alto, that is working with Croquet and producing commercial products for corporations.

[16:52]  Boston Hutchinson: Some of their work is not open-source.

[16:52]  You: How are they contributing to open standards?

[16:53]  Diego Ibanez is Offline

[16:53]  You: . . . for virtual worlds . . . a kind of TCP / IP that creates innovation.

[16:53]  Boston Hutchinson: I'm not sure, but it's my understanding that they do contribute a portion of their work, perhaps the more generic features.

[16:53]  You: Yes . . .

[16:54]  You: (or at leasts supports innovation . . . hacking, specifically).

[16:54]  Boston Hutchinson: It would be nice if there were a "retail" version of Croquet that made it easy to get started and implemented some security features.

[16:54]  You: (or an http - html version, to use a different metaphor).

[16:54]  Geda Hax: who is the "onwer"of this new technology Boston ?

[16:55]  Boston Hutchinson: Linden could even do this, if they wanted

[16:55]  You: (that would articulate freely with every other emerging virtual world).

[16:56]  Boston Hutchinson: They could offer a proprietary version of Croquet, allow people to teleport between SL and Croquet, and host a portion of their personal virtual worlds in Croquet on their own computers.

[16:56]  You decline NAG Estate II, GiCo (91, 225, 22) from A group member named Claudine Albatros.

[16:57]  Boston Hutchinson: We could then use SL and a public meeting place, and Croquet as more of a private space, like a classroom, living room, etc.

[16:57]  Boston Hutchinson: The technology is open source, Geda. It's not owned by anybody. It's free.

[16:58]  You: How might a set of virtual worlds emerge, in the way that Arpanet > TCP / IP > the WWW > html/http emerge that got the whole world online in a very easy way, with Croquet as a basis?

[16:58]  Geda Hax: ok , will google it later

[16:58]  Boston Hutchinson: Some of the developers see Croquet as an operating system that could replace Windows, OS X, and Linux.

[16:59]  You: How much University money would be required to do this, for starters?

[17:00]  Bruce Flyer is Online

[17:00]  Boston Hutchinson: http://www.opencroquet.org/index.php/Main_Page

[17:00]  You: A kind of XO - one laptop per child - of virtual worlds - on the software side of things, wiht innovation and ease as part of the platform . . .

[17:01]  Geda Hax: thanks Boston

[17:01]  Boston Hutchinson: Well, it's more a matter of focus, than money, Aphilo.

[17:01]  You: Thanks, Boston . . .

[17:01]  Geda Hax: Hi there Bruce

[17:01]  Bruce Flyer: hi!

[17:01]  You: Hi Bruce!

[17:02]  Bruce Flyer: nice new place!

[17:02]  Boston Hutchinson: I think a corporation could build a product, but would need some money to make it secure and simple enough for the public.

[17:02]  Boston Hutchinson: Hi Bruce

[17:02]  Bruce Flyer: Hi everyone!

[17:03]  Boston Hutchinson: As for the universities, they seem to be focused on their own projects, which results in many worlds, not a single interconnected universe.

[17:03]  You: Very interesting . . . Yes . . . let's take a break now . . .

[17:03]  Boston Hutchinson: Should we try to go back to Berkman?

[17:04]  Geda Hax: this could be what was missing to make metaverses commercially ( heavly talking ) to launch

[17:04]  You: I see . . . Nicholas Negroponte's strong commitment to nonprofit status, and keeping the XO's mission 'pure' especially vis-a-vis corporations is an signficant historical aspect of the internet.

[17:04]  You: Yes . . . let's meet there in 7 minutes . . . or so.

[17:04]  Geda Hax: ok

[17:05]  Geda Hax: see you there

[17:05]  Boston Hutchinson: OK

[17:05]  You: See you soon. . .

[17:05]  Connecting to in-world Voice Chat...

[17:05]  Connected

[17:06]  Free Radar HUD v1.1 by Crystal Gadgets

[17:07]  Persis Trilling is Online

[17:08]  Bruce Flyer is Offline

[17:09]  Bruce Flyer is Online

[17:10]  Mondrian Lykin is Offline

[17:10]  Claryssa Schmidt is Online

[17:11]  Jagger Valeeva is Online

[17:13]  You: In the next part of this class, perhaps we could develop through conversation a vision for virtual worlds vis-a-vis what we've talked about thus far.

[17:13]  You: Croquet offers many opportunities vis a vis open source virtual worlds.

[17:14]  anewlife Merlin is Online

[17:15]  You: Negroponte did accept 2 million dollars from at least 6 or 7 companies, in developing the XO, but has hewed to a very un corporate model for this project, rather an academic or University one of sorts

[17:15]  You: Let's talk about how we might envision an optimal virtual world scenario ahead . . . a kind of envisioning, given the realities of what we've talked about thus far, both tonight and in this course.

[17:16]  Jagger Valeeva is Offline

[17:16]  Boston Hutchinson: That's an interesting comparison. Croquet seems to have a small group of developers who've been working on this vision for many years and are good friends.

[17:16]  You: Boston has mentioned a possible retail version to help with ease of use . .

[17:16]  Boston Hutchinson: But I don't know if they have as much focus a a single individual with a vision like Negroponte's

[17:17]  You: and perhaps distribution of a virtual world with potentially 'superior' underlying technologies.

[17:17]  You: True . . .

[17:17]  Boston Hutchinson: One possibility is that somebody will develope it just enough so that it runs well over the Internet, and then release it into the wild.

[17:18]  Boston Hutchinson: Then we can all experiment with it, even the non-programmers.

[17:18]  anewlife Merlin is Offline

[17:18]  You: and Nicholas Negroponte have seen the signficance of offering computing and internet access to kids in the developing world

[17:18]  Krysss Galatea is Offline

[17:18]  Boston Hutchinson: Then maybe something interesting will evolve

[17:19]  Krysss Galatea is Online

[17:19]  You: and have built a $100 laptop designed for people who need it and can't otherwise get it.

[17:19]  You: ...Some more background - MIT

[17:20]  You: They have brought this to fruition . . . it's a vision and a reality

[17:20]  You: And they have done so drawing on University resources, and engineering thinking, vis-a-vis MIT

[17:21]  You: How might we envision a virtual world synergy process here tonight that might develop out of these processes?

[17:21]  You: (Hi Claryssa)

[17:22]  You: Boston has mentioned the possibilities of hosting software on our own computers, so that no intermediary servers are necessary.

[17:23]  You: In other talks with Boston, he has mentioned, for example, being able to video our own homes and transposing that instanteously into a virtual environment through using Croquet - like technologies.

[17:23]  Boston Hutchinson: The Internet currently depends on servers, many of them, running all the websites, but one could imagine a version of the Internet in which everyone's computer hosted a website.

[17:23]  Champler Snook is Offline

[17:24]  You: Pick up a pencil at home and it rises in a virtual world, and place it down on your virtual desk, and it realizes there . . .

[17:24]  Bruce Flyer: table pc?

[17:24]  Champler Snook is Online

[17:24]  You: The world as virtual . . .

[17:25]  Boston Hutchinson: Yes, that's my vision of it, Aphilo. I'd like to see cameras automatically recreate the actual environment of my office or living room.

[17:25]  Bruce Flyer: EMC did something like that recently but it was not live

[17:25]  You: The simple distinction between SL and Croquet gives rise to many new possibilties, both real and virtual . . . that echo the information technology revolution in terms of giving us creative realizations . . .

[17:25]  You: Yes, Boston

[17:26]  Champler Snook is Online

[17:26]  You: Yes, Bruce?

[17:26]  Boston Hutchinson: It could be modified to make the clutter dissapear or change the style, but it should be possibl in the future to have the cameras detect motion and recreate it in the virtual world, so that my avatar moves when I do and the real pencil appears on the desk in the virtual world.

[17:26]  You: ( the last part about a pencil realizing elsehwere is somehting we haven't talked about, and more distant in the future).

[17:27]  Boston Hutchinson: Yes, that can be done in an AI lab now, but not at home yet.

[17:27]  You: Yes . . . and this is just one remarkable realizable vision.

[17:28]  You: Rain, Claryssa, Geda . . . what would you like to see, on any scale vis-a vis virtual worlds?

[17:28]  Geda Hax: hmm

[17:28]  Geda Hax: art

[17:29]  You: If Croquet offers possibilities to create worlds due to technologies that differ from current ones, and those are envisionable what might you like to see?

[17:29]  You: Hello Lindie

[17:29]  You: Welcome

[17:29]  Bruce Flyer: i would like my avatar to be able to enter a booth here and by so doing gain control of a camera in a real room somewhere and perhaps the avatar appear in a jar on the table there

[17:29]  Lindie Tolsen: Hi everyone !!!

[17:29]  You: (This is a class on the Society and Information TEchnology - http://socinfotech.pbwiki.com

[17:29]  Boston Hutchinson: Hi Lindie

[17:29]  Geda Hax: Hi Lindie

[17:29]  You: You're welcome to participate

[17:30]  Lindie Tolsen: I'm sorry , but I have to go ... It was nice talking to you !!!

[17:30]  Lindie Tolsen: Kisses !

[17:30]  You: Yes, Bruce . . . who might offer us insight into holography at present . . .

[17:31]  You: Can a jar like object be used as a kind of projection unit?

[17:31]  Boston Hutchinson: Bruce, why not dispense with the real room and let everyone be in the virtual space?

[17:31]  You: for example . . .

[17:31]  Bruce Flyer: didn't Al Gore make a speech somewhere as a hologram?

[17:32]  You: Using SL as a reference point - hasn't that already happened Bruce?

[17:32]  You: Aren't we there?

[17:32]  You: I think so, in some ways . . . which is what makes SL so sophisticated.

[17:32]  Boston Hutchinson: I guess the problem is that it all takes place on a screen

[17:32]  Bruce Flyer: i think real rooms will continue to be important and i am trying to merge the two

[17:33]  You: Embellishments are ahead . . . but SL is like life in enough ways as for me to considere it philosophically 'real'

[17:33]  Boston Hutchinson: Some of the people sit at a table in a real room and meet in the virtual world on their laptops while others are not in the room, but only on the laptops

[17:34]  Bruce Flyer: it would be difficult to square dance here, but i suppose that is not a major need

[17:34]  You: Yes, Boston, but holograms are possible . . . in a jar potentially . . .

[17:34]  You: Dancing happens a lot in SL . . . by dragging a script.

[17:35]  You: Can't hear you Geda . . . but keep trying, please . . .

[17:35]  Boston Hutchinson: So the rent-a-bot avatar jar on wheels or something could be the physical presence.

[17:35]  Bruce Flyer: but it is loosely coupled dance

[17:35]  Bruce Flyer: no pun intended

[17:35]  You: within a jar, I suspect . . .

[17:35]  You: I think it can be very intimate, and paired, but still virtual . . .

[17:35]  Boston Hutchinson: What if the virtual world were the real one?

[17:36]  Boston Hutchinson: and the real world becomes just a prototye\pe

[17:36]  You: I think SL offers the ability to explore that in more reality than ever before, and enough even to make it an argument . . .

[17:36]  You: that can lead to a whole new kind of reasoning . . .

[17:37]  Veeyawn Spoonhammer is Online

[17:37]  Boston Hutchinson: so that your cameras recreate the room full of people, with full motion, and the visitor who isn't there just walks her avatar up to the table and takes a place?

[17:37]  You: Does that not already happen with SL, where it's modeled on the RL, and then diverges?

[17:37]  Geda Hax: no problems AP .....

[17:38]  Perry Proudhon is Online

[17:38]  Boston Hutchinson: We don't have direct guesture control here (maybe in the future)

[17:38]  You: Is not SL an open table (with some weather)

[17:38]  Geda Hax: I have a friend here in sl that is already playing with that ......we could try to bring him here so we could share his perceptions with us

[17:38]  You: It's limited but we do, I think, from our inventory . . .

[17:38]  Boston Hutchinson: and we don't have the ability to recreate a real room in real time.

[17:38]  Geda Hax: *he

[17:38]  Bruce Flyer: Sun is talking about how to represent avatars in conference and have some unusual ideas like footsteps and "mysterons" from Captain someone from way back

[17:39]  You: SL is that . .. so let's assume all that you have mentioned already is in SL . . .

[17:39]  You: What next?

[17:39]  You: (And it's old hat, so to speak).

[17:39]  Boston Hutchinson: I mean if I lift my cup and take a sip of coffe, my avatar would do the same. If I smile, my avatar would smile.

[17:39]  Champler Snook is Offline

[17:40]  Champler Snook is Online

[17:40]  You: I see . . . well you can lift up your cup in SL and smile, and it happens in your mind . . .

[17:40]  Boston Hutchinson: Imaginary avatars, Bruce?

[17:40]  Boston Hutchinson: I'm confused.

[17:40]  Bruce Flyer: more like ghost androids or something

[17:40]  You: And you can click a mouse, and get a buck or a cup at your door, via an online merchant . . .

[17:41]  You: About avatars, we've explored this before . . .

[17:41]  You: but how might avatars gain agency?

[17:41]  Bruce Flyer: i never saw a mysterion (whatever) on TV but it seems to be a beam of light from above?

[17:42]  You: Let me explain one approach . . . I'm curious about yours thoughts . . . And poker is an interesting metaphor

[17:42]  Boston Hutchinson: What if everyone at the conference table wears a VR helmet and seesboth the peoplein the room and the people not realy there, without being able to tell which is which?

[17:42]  You: Say more, Boston . . . . and I'll also proceed . . . Say poker robots play hands of poker

[17:42]  Bruce Flyer: not recommended while driving

[17:43]  Boston Hutchinson: I'm just trying to envision ways of merging virtual and actual reality.

[17:43]  You: And in playing these hands of poker, some programmers begin to substitute words and phrases.

[17:44]  You: Here's one way that a kind of virtual reality may emerge that is indistinguishable from life.

[17:44]  You: Using the Turing test - which suggests that artificial intelligence has been achieved

[17:45]  You: when a human can't distinguish a person from a computer program in a variety of contexts . . .

[17:46]  You: When poker bots begin to articulate words and phrases

[17:46]  You: that then draw upon a potential database of linguistic usage, such as might be recorded and stored in a program second life, and

[17:46]  You: then begin to play novel combinations of

[17:47]  Bruce Flyer: how could any one of us prove not to be a bot?

[17:47]  You: these words and phrases in semantically significantly ways, and potentially through a avatar hologram in a jar,

[17:47]  Rajah Yalin is Online

[17:47]  Boston Hutchinson: If they confine their comments to the game, somebody might think they're intelligent, but as soom as the context loses those limits, they wouldn't pass the test.

[17:47]  You: you would have a form of avatar ai

[17:48]  You: Say, for example, Richard Rorty's comments on film and in all other media were transposed into a database - he was a philosopher and literary criticism professor at Stanford

[17:49]  You: such that his thinking could be played like hands in poker bots or chatter bots or a combination, you would then have agency.

[17:50]  Boston Hutchinson: Imagine trying to program a robot to engage in this discussion. How long would it be before we became suspicious?

[17:50]  You: the limitation is in the program that synthesizes the language use of a rorty, but all of this is very close, I think.

[17:50]  Bruce Flyer: but we don't know the structure of the mind to capture it in a knowledge base yet

[17:51]  You: there are some chatterbots whcih are becoming indistinuishable from humans I have read - particularly focusing on porn, or all things - so they already pass a limited form of Turing test, Bruce.

[17:51]  Boston Hutchinson: I really can't imagine that we'll get a robot that passes the Turing test in the next 20 years

[17:52]  Bruce Flyer: i think i have been faked out by a "camping bot" here at least once

[17:52]  You: Within the rules of this porn 'game' I think they already have, Boston.

[17:52]  Boston Hutchinson: I don't think that's what Turing had in mind. :)

[17:53]  Bruce Flyer: i suspect the agents at Colwell Banker real estate office in SL are bots

[17:53]  You: I'll see if I can get you the link to this article - this may well be a very focused use, but it has multiple significances :)

[17:53]  You: Perhaps, Bruce :)

[17:54]  You: I'm curious, though, whether a Rorty avatar bot, that walks hologram like on our shoulder talking with us, and conversantly independent from us passing a kind of turing test in your minds?

[17:54]  You: * passes

[17:55]  Persis Trilling is Offline

[17:55]  anewlife Merlin is Online

[17:56]  You: Perhaps you'd have to engage it to see, but at least as a kind of visualization and virtualization process, it does in my mind - but not yet realized that I've seen.

[17:56]  Bruce Flyer: could a new religion emerge in a virtual place like this?

[17:56]  You: This is, however, a kind of roadmap toward avatar agency . . .

[17:56]  Arawn Spitteler is Online

[17:56]  Boston Hutchinson: I just don't think computers have the computational capacity to pass the Turing test for quite a while. We can argue the actual test details forever, but there's just not enough info processing there to do it.

[17:57]  You: SL may already be a kind of religion for some, Bruce.

[17:57]  Bruce Flyer: what does it offer that religions offer?

[17:57]  You: Let me see if I kind find you the porn article . . .

[17:58]  You: :) a communal process, a code system, the name :)

[17:58]  anewlife Merlin is Online

[17:59]  You: Here's teh BBC article on chatterbots and avatars passing the Turing test vis-a-vis por

[17:59]  You: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/3503465.stm

[18:00]  Geda Hax: I am very sorry but I need to leave now , thanks Ap .....bye guys , see you soon

[18:00]  You: Let me know what you think . . .

[18:00]  Bruce Flyer: bye Geda

[18:00]  You: Perhaps it's a culturally relative BBC British phenomenon . . .

[18:00]  You: Bye Geda

[18:00]  Boston Hutchinson: I see SL as a collection of places, maybe a museum, but could it host a church or temple or mosque? I guess it does, but that's still a place, not a religion.

[18:01]  Bruce Flyer: regarding religion, a means of temporary escape from reality

[18:01]  Bruce Flyer: but not eternal life, which is the core of religious belief systems

[18:01]  You: 'place' ? 'religion' ?

[18:01]  anewlife Merlin is Online

[18:02]  You: Here's one view of religion vis-a-vis evolution and natural selection

[18:02]  You: Scott Atran's

[18:02]  Bruce Flyer: nor does it offer a central figure to be worshipped

[18:02]  Bruce Flyer: figure is not the right word

[18:02]  You: "In God's we Trust: The Evolutionary Landscape of Religion"

[18:03]  Boston Hutchinson: SL is a place (or collection of places, like Paris is a place.

[18:03]  You: published by Oxford in 2004, I think.

[18:04]  You: place, avatar, communication, mode of exchange, ability to create . . . does not a religion make...

[18:04]  Brian Whiteberry is Online

[18:04]  Bruce Flyer: it is late and we are getting deep

[18:04]  You: I privilege these as being signficant to SL . . .

[18:04]  Champler Snook is Offline

[18:05]  You: What is SL for each of you?

[18:05]  You: Rain?

[18:05]  Rain Ninetails: hmm a break from RL?

[18:05]  You: Yes

[18:05]  Rain Ninetails: social networking?

[18:06]  You: and?

[18:06]  You: And for you Claryssa?

[18:06]  anewlife Merlin is Online

[18:07]  You: It's also a set of programs that enable these possibilities....

[18:07]  Diego Ibanez is Online

[18:07]  You: Boston, thank very much for

[18:07]  You: presenting this evening

[18:08]  Boston Hutchinson: You're welcome. Happy to talk about Croquet.

[18:08]  You: and showing us possibilities with Croquet . . .

[18:08]  Bruce Flyer: I am sorry i was late. It was good to visit MIT. Perhaps we can take a short field trip each week?

[18:09]  You: New technololiges create new possibilities for virutalization and realization, I think.

[18:09]  You: let's see what develops . . . we may try to meet in croquet one of these weeks

[18:09]  You: Please download the program, which is in the transcript that I'll post soon . . .

[18:10]  Boston Hutchinson: That's an interesting idea,Bruce. Each of us probably knows an interesting place or two.

[18:10]  Bruce Flyer: i don't get out much :-)

[18:10]  You: Yes, Bruce . . . I agree . . .

[18:11]  Boston Hutchinson: The Croquet download is interesting.

[18:11]  Boston Hutchinson: You can run it on your own computer w/o any connections

[18:11]  You: Would you like to show us one or two interesting places next week, Bruce?

[18:11]  Bruce Flyer: i am not the one this time. but i would like to visit somewhere you all may suggest

[18:11]  You: Or soon, and if you'd like to create a presentation about them, I'd welcome it . . .

[18:12]  You: Ok . . . Let's see what emerges vis a vis place visiting . . .

[18:12]  Bruce Flyer: maybe EMC campus, but I don't know how to teleport others there

[18:12]  You: Rain, would you like to make a presentation?

[18:12]  Rain Ninetails: I don't think so, Aphilo.

[18:13]  You: (Next week, Andromeda, will talk about some visionary IT and virtual world authors)

[18:13]  Brian Whiteberry is Online

[18:13]  You: Ok . . . let me know if you change your mind, Rain . . .

[18:13]  Bruce Flyer: i have a class IRL on Wed evenings so am likely to be late again

[18:14]  You: Thanks for letting me know . . . I'll check out

[18:14]  You: with Andromeda what time is best for her to make her presentation .. .

[18:15]  Brian Whiteberry is Offline

[18:15]  You: I'm going to post this transcript online for the next few minutes . . . . Thanks again for presenting, Boston . . . I'll be back briefly in a few minutes.

[18:15]  Bruce Flyer: good night all

[18:16]  Boston Hutchinson: Good night, Bruce

[18:16]  You: Good night, Bruce

[18:16]  Bruce Flyer is Offline

[18:16]  Boston Hutchinson: I should get back to RL.

[18:16]  Boston Hutchinson: See you all next week.

[18:17]  You: See you next week, Boston. Thanks again!

[18:17]  Boston Hutchinson: Thanks for class, Aphilo.

[18:17]  You: You're welcome . . .

[18:17]  Rain Ninetails: :)

[18:17]  Boston Hutchinson: See you next time, Rain, Claryssa

[18:17]  You: I'm glad you're participating, Rain.

[18:17]  Claryssa Schmidt: bye Boston

[18:18]  Rain Ninetails: bye

[18:18]  You: .... and Claryssa

[18:18]  Boston Hutchinson is Offline

[18:18]  Rain Ninetails: I know Andromeda would like the link...

[18:19]  Rain Ninetails: :)

[18:20]  You: The link to what, Rain?

[18:20]  Rain Ninetails: the transcript for today?

[18:21]  You: I'm posting that presently - they are accessible in general from http://socinfotech.pbwiki.com, as you probably know.

[18:21]  Rain Ninetails: mm :)

[18:21]  You: But wait a minute and I'll give you the specific link . . .

[18:21]  Claryssa Schmidt: I could do a presentation on OpenSim later

[18:22]  Rain Ninetails: :) oh!

[18:22]  You: That sounds very interesting . . .

[18:22]  Rain Ninetails nods

[18:23]  Chinadoll Lulu is Online

[18:23]  You: Here's the link - http://socinfotech.pbwiki.com/Feb-6-2008-Soc-and-Info-Tech-class-transcript

[18:23]  Rain Ninetails: ty

[18:23]  Claryssa Schmidt: thanks

[18:24]  You: You're welcome.

[18:24]  Joe Petrel is Online

[18:24]  You: What in particular would you focus on, Claryssa?

[18:25]  Claryssa Schmidt: don't really know

[18:25]  You: Ok . . . perhaps we might talk about that next week . . .

[18:26]  Rain Ninetails: :) see you next week. Aphilo, Claryssa. :)

[18:26]  You: I'm going to head on . . .

[18:26]  Claryssa Schmidt: bye :)

[18:26]  You: See you soon :)

[18:26]  Rain Ninetails: bye!

[18:26]  You: Good night