Society and Information Technology in Second Life
Wednesdays, January 9 - July 30, 2008, 4-6, SLT/PT, 7-9 pm ET
on Berkman island in Second Life - http://slurl.com/secondlife/Berkman/114/70/25
Course homepage - http://socinfotech.pbwiki.com
Instructor: Scott MacLeod (not on Harvard's faculty) = Aphilo Aarde (in Second Life)
http://scottmacleod.com/papers.htm
Feb 27 2008 Soc and Info Tech class transcript
[15:46] Luna Bliss is Online
[15:46] Froukje Hoorenbeek is Online
[15:46] Annette Paster is Online
[15:46] Andromeda Mesmer is Online
[15:46] Spider Mycron is Online
[15:46] Mariamo Babii is Online
[15:46] SamBivalent Spork is Online
[15:46] Jon Seattle is Online
[15:46] Champler Snook is Online
[15:46] Daisyblue Hefferman is Online
[15:46] Barbie Starr is Online
[15:46] Connecting to in-world Voice Chat...
[15:46] Connected
[15:46] You decline Life Heartbeat Class Area, Epirrita (35, 39, 525) from A group member named Spider Mycron.
[15:46] You decline Virtual Web Symposium -event & streaming details from A group member named Sarasvati Kohime.
[15:46] You decline Life Heartbeat Class Area, Epirrita (35, 39, 525) from A group member named Spider Mycron.
[15:46] A group member named 57 Miles gave you Zebra Presenter - BETA (boxed).
[15:54] Mec Benelli: Hello, Is this an open lecture?
[15:55] You: Hi Mec
[15:55] You: Yes, you're welcome to attend this class.
[15:55] Mec Benelli: Hi Aphilo
[15:56] Mec Benelli: Thank you very much
[15:56] You: Here's the course wiki - http://socinfotech.pbwiki.com
[15:56] Mec Benelli: Thanks
[15:56] Mec Benelli: I am from Finland
[15:57] You: It must be early in the morning there.
[15:57] You: Do you happen to know Pekka Himanen, by any chance?
[15:57] Mec Benelli: I know his work but not in person
[15:58] You: I'll be right back . . .
[15:58] You: Hello Andrew MD
[15:58] AndrewMD Oh: Hello
[15:58] Mec Benelli: Hello
[16:00] AndrewMD Oh: there is a bit of lag
[16:00] Mec Benelli: Yes .. as always , hehe
[16:01] AndrewMD Oh: :-)
[16:01] You: Hello Jules
[16:01] Mec Benelli: Have to sit tight
[16:01] Jules Usbourne: hey
[16:01] You: Lag here too
[16:02] AndrewMD Oh: yes, Sir
[16:02] Boston Hutchinson is Online
[16:02] You: Are you here for Society and Information Technology Jules and Andrew?
[16:02] Jules Usbourne: certainly am
[16:03] Jules Usbourne: a little taster maybe
[16:03] You: Great - here's the wiki - http://socinfotech.pbwiki.com
[16:03] You: Hi Bolt
[16:03] You: Welcome
[16:03] You: Hello Boston
[16:03] You: Hello Spang
[16:03] Bolt Bashly: hello, ty
[16:03] Spang Nastula: hi
[16:03] Boston Hutchinson: Hi Aphilo
[16:04] Claryssa Schmidt is Online
[16:04] You: So this is a course on Society and Information Technology - at large participation is welcome.
[16:05] You: We're continuing to examine how the IT revolution developed, and the transcripts
[16:05] You: from previous classes are posted at http://socinfotech.pbwiki.com
[16:05] You: Hi Claryssa!
[16:06] You: One interesting aspect of SL is the possibility for multiple lines of reasoning that group chats make possible.
[16:06] You: So I suspect you may be able to complement some of the areas we'll explore this evening.
[16:07] You: It makes our conversations richer when you do, so you are welcome to contribute.
[16:07] You: Hello Rain.
[16:07] Rain Ninetails: hi!
[16:08] You: In the past I've found that a kind of flow experience occurs when people chat at the same time . . .
[16:08] You: Tonight we'll look at some of the cultures that gave rise to the Internet,
[16:08] You: as well as at the Informational City in relation to the IT revolution
[16:09] You: We'll examine this latter aspect after the break.
[16:09] You: Hello Andromeda.
[16:09] Rain Ninetails: :)
[16:09] You: This course is perhaps best
[16:09] Andromeda Mesmer: Hi Aphilo -- thanks for the TP, Rain - large scale failures reported today.
[16:10] You: conceieved as an examination of a paradigm shift
[16:10] You: that occurred, that is on a par with other industrial revolutions.
[16:11] You: And what we're examining here is ways in which this paradigm shift affects
[16:11] You: every aspect of the society and economic processes.
[16:11] You: allowing one to do things in specific ways that you couldn't do before, with effects through the entire social structure.
[16:12] AndrewMD Oh: is this based on some work done by Professor Carlota Perez, Sir?
[16:12] You: The first far-reaching effect of this IT revolution is that its effects on the economy and society are PERVASIVE
[16:13] You: I'm very interested in long time Berkeley Professor Manuel Castells' analyses of the Network Society
[16:13] You: And draw on his work in some measure.
[16:13] AndrewMD Oh: ok
[16:14] You: The 2nd thing that occurs in this IT revolution is that fundamental change is at the core of generating and changing information.
[16:15] You: And as we've explored before, this paradigm shift arose due to three main technological developments - the innovations that emerge with microelectronics, computers and telecommunications
[16:15] You: starting in large part in the 1950s.
[16:16] You: A fourth aspect of this IT revolution involves genetic engineering, but we dont' examine that in depth here.
[16:17] You: So, the four cultures that gave rise to the IT revolution
[16:17] Chinadoll Lulu is Online
[16:17] Arawn Spitteler is Online
[16:17] You: include 1 technomeritocratic culture
[16:17] Eshi Otawara is Online
[16:17] You: 2 Hacker culture
[16:18] You: 3) communitarian culture
[16:18] You: and 4) and much later - first in the mid -1990s - entrepreneurialism
[16:18] You: Briefly,
[16:19] You: the technomeritocratic culture is one that valued GOOD technology
[16:19] You: Good software was a supreme value.
[16:19] You: The model here is similar to the academic world
[16:19] You: which is supposed to be based on EXCELLENCE
[16:20] You: So the value of excellence combined with the joy of discovery did influence many of the technologies that gave rise to the Intneret
[16:21] You: ...including early networks, like ARPANET in the late 60s and early 70s
[16:21] You: TCP/IP in the mid-1970s - which are the protocols which guide packet switching
[16:22] You: USENET - the first user groups articulation with ARPANET in the late 70s and early 80s
[16:22] You: and the WWW - Tim Berners-Lee's writing of http and html in the late 80s and early 90s
[16:23] You: http is hypertext transfer protocol - the web addressing protocol, and html is hyper text markup language, still the language of web pages
[16:24] You: and numerous other technologies, were all influenced by this technomeritocratic ethos -
[16:24] You: where money played a relatively insignificant role, and making good software was the key thing
[16:25] You: So in the Technomeritocratic culture, excellence and meritocracy are guiding processes
[16:25] You: For example, Vint Cerf, the self-proclaimed father of the the Internet, and a key writer of TCP/IP
[16:26] You: used Defense Department monies - public monies - because he wanted good software to be available to everyone.
[16:26] You: 2) On the basis of the above culture a 2nd culture emerged
[16:26] You: Hacker Culture
[16:27] You: And Pekka Himanens' "The Hacker Ethic"
[16:27] You: explores this
[16:27] You: He explains herethe relationship between hacker and Internet culture
[16:28] Spider Mycron is Offline
[16:28] You: For him, a hacker is the media construct which breaks the law - these are so-called crackers
[16:28] You: Rather, a hacker is someone for whom good software is the most important thing.
[16:29] You: It's one who hacks - who says "I'm going to find a new solution", and then shares it.
[16:29] You: So hackers here are not 2 things - they aren't criminals
[16:30] You: hackers hate crackers
[16:30] You: which are 2) a sub culture
[16:30] You: Crackers crack codes for the challengeof it
[16:30] SamBivalent Spork is Offline
[16:30] You: They create viruses
[16:30] You: They make problems for governments
[16:31] You: There are also political crackers
[16:31] You: Most crackers are kids playing, challenging the world.
[16:31] You: So, hackers take pleasure out of hacking.
[16:31] You: How Hacker Culture relates to the Internet
[16:32] You: In this viw, Hackers think that free speech is free software - free, good software
[16:32] You: And companies threaten this.
[16:32] You: A minority says that software should be free
[16:33] Luna Bliss is Offline
[16:33] You: For example - Linux
[16:33] You: And the majority need free software to improve software - through free software and information exchange.
[16:33] You: named after Linus Torvalds
[16:33] You: ...another Finn (Himanen is alos Finnish) - FREIX
[16:34] SamBivalent Spork is Online
[16:34] You: was the first name of of LINUX
[16:34] You: but server administrators called it Linux - Torvalds released
[16:35] You: the program because he watned the program to be improved.
[16:35] You: Welcom Natalina - this is a course on Society and Informatnion Techniology - http://socinfotech.pbwiki.com - at large participation is welcom
[16:36] You: and 1000s and 1000s of people improved LINUX
[16:36] You: - all for FREE
[16:36] You: Why keep it free?
[16:36] You: Because if you freeze it for yourself
[16:36] You: you close it off
[16:36] You: So in Hacker culture - 1) you give in order to be given to
[16:37] You: And 2) prestige is important among hackers, so hackers write for each otehr for free
[16:37] You: And most hackers can get money, but not all can be recognized.
[16:37] Breen Mathy is Online
[16:37] You: Hackers aren't against money, but against money as a supreme value.
[16:38] You: so some parts of the technomeritocratic culture and to much of hacker culture
[16:39] You: it's essential to keep free all key software in the Internet
[16:39] You: 3 COMMUNITARIAN CULTURE
[16:39] You: The Internet was not made up solely of Hackers
[16:39] Breen Mathy is Offline
[16:40] You: In the 70s and the 80s, when email was the most used application
[16:40] You: as were bbs - bulletin board systems
[16:40] Breen Mathy is Online
[16:40] You: the Internet was an important way for people to communicate with people
[16:40] You: Community took shape on line
[16:41] You: for the sharing of information
[16:41] You: and through chat rooms, and listservs, as well.
[16:41] You: 4) ENTREPRENEURIAL CULTURE
[16:41] You: This began to play a significant role only in the 1990s
[16:41] Spider Mycron is Online
[16:41] You: The mentality here was - "all this is great - let's make a pile of money"
[16:42] You: But Infomration Technology was a risky investment
[16:42] You: So a business emerged out of applications.
[16:42] You: And this helped diffuse the Internet to the rest of the world, and led to
[16:42] You: the development of markets, as well as wide spread use by people
[16:43] You: The importance of these cultures that infomred the Internet and the IT Revolution
[16:43] You: goes from top to bottom.
[16:43] You: 1) the technomeritocratic
[16:43] You: 2 hacker
[16:43] You: 3 communitarian
[16:44] You: and 4) entrepreneurial
[16:44] Breen Mathy is Offline
[16:45] You: We'll take a break at about 5 SLT / PST
[16:45] You: for 10 minutes or so
[16:45] You: And next week Boston has offered to talk about Ray Kurzweil's vision -
[16:46] You: Kurzweil, affiliated with MIT, has one of the most successful track records at prognosticating the future of the Internet.
[16:46] Diego Ibanez is Online
[16:46] You: Is there anything you'd like to add about this now?
[16:46] You: Boston/
[16:47] Boston Hutchinson: He's predicting that the rate of change will continue to accelerate
[16:47] Boston Hutchinson: so that asingularity occurs before the middle of the century
[16:48] You: Can you explain what singualarity is
[16:48] Boston Hutchinson: at which point, the difference between human and machine intelligence, and indeed the difference between humans and non-humans will blur beyond recognition
[16:49] You: Thanks
[16:49] You: Both Boston and Andromeda
[16:49] You: have given interesting presentations in past weeks
[16:49] You: on Croquet - another virtual world, which will partly reside locally, on your own machine
[16:50] Eshi Otawara is Offline
[16:50] Boston Hutchinson: a singularity is a point where a mathematical formula breaks down and doesn't give an answer (like infinity), or the boundary of a black hole, where essentially no information is visible
[16:50] You: and Charlie Stross', Heinlein's, and a little about Steve Mann's visions.
[16:50] You: I suspect that
[16:51] You: some of you have specialized knowledge or interests, relation to the IT revolution, whether it be envisioning th efuture, or how it is affecting social and economic processes
[16:51] You: and if you'd like to present something here, you are welcom to
[16:52] You: Are there any questions or observations thus far?
[16:54] You: There is a group for this course Soc & Info Tech - Aphilo on Berkman - thorugh which
[16:54] You: we make occasional announcements.
[16:54] Andromeda Mesmer: Just to add a little about the popularity of Charlie Stross book -- HALTING STATE about the near future world has gone into a 2nd printing, and he will write a sequel.
[16:55] You: Thanks
[16:55] You: Any questions or observations? (I encourage you to particpate in the conversation)
[16:55] You: Well let's take a break now, and come back at 5 minutes past the hour.
[16:55] You: See you soon.
[16:55] SamBivalent Spork is Online
[16:56] Andromeda Mesmer: OK. I'm off to the RL fridge :)
[16:56] You: And I will post this transcript to teh wiki - http://socinfotech.pbwiki.com
[16:56] You: :)
[16:56] You: :)
[16:57] You decline How to make a Movie in SL - pack from A group member named Spider Mycron.
[16:58] Eshi Otawara is Online
[17:01] Diego Ibanez is Offline
[17:02] Claryssa Schmidt is Online
[17:06] Rain Ninetails: hi Oshi!
[17:06] Oshi Pixie: hiya
[17:06] You: Hello
[17:06] Rain Ninetails: :)
[17:06] Rain Ninetails: meet friend Andromeda on my left
[17:06] Oshi Pixie: pleasure to meet you
[17:07] Andromeda Mesmer: Hi -!
[17:07] You: I've posted the first half of tonight's transcript to http://socinfotech.pbwiki.com
[17:07] You: Hi Oshi - Welcome
[17:07] Oshi Pixie: thx aphilo
[17:08] You: So, we're going to move away from the cultures that informed the development of the IT revolution
[17:08] You: to Information TEchnology and spatial transformation.
[17:09] You: conversation makes the course interesting.
[17:09] You: And again, I suspect you may have specialized knowledges, or if you would like to contribut generally, please do.
[17:09] You: Welcom Harris
[17:10] You: So, the spatial transformation we're talking about is of the world itself, affected by technology but also the Network Society.
[17:10] You: This course is explaining how the Network Society emerged
[17:11] Diego Ibanez is Online
[17:11] You: Spaces express these transformations
[17:11] You: They express the habitat we live in, and the society.
[17:11] You: And these transofrmation are far-reaching, and may be complicated by both reports by the media, with their prohecies of the future.
[17:12] You: Concerning Information TEchnology's effects on urban living, the media's views are often plain wrong.
[17:13] You: the basic prediciton has long been, that the more we go into the IT Rev, the less cities makes sense is wrong, too.
[17:13] You: The electronic cottage theory - no more traffic, no more cities, - just countryside and pretty houses `
[17:14] You: :) - look at Silicon Valley - this hasn't happened.
[17:14] You: Smart cars and trains, for example, have emerged to deal with traffic.
[17:14] Xirconnia Morphett is Online
[17:14] You: How many of you work from home, primarliy through digital technologies. I'm curious - I know at least one.
[17:15] Boston Hutchinson: Maybe it just hasn't started yet
[17:15] Boston Hutchinson: i do
[17:15] You: Does anyone else here?
[17:15] Oshi Pixie: i'd like 2 eventually
[17:15] You: Perhaps . . .
[17:15] You: It's very possible.
[17:15] You: Mec, Bolt?
[17:15] Andromeda Mesmer: I do , partly.
[17:15] Bolt Bashly: a bit
[17:16] You: Jules, Rain, AndrewMD?
[17:16] Mec Benelli: Partly yes
[17:16] Rain Ninetails: sometimes. I'd like to more
[17:16] You: Would you like to, and do you foresee this happening, say, five years out?
[17:17] You: So it's not that things aren't changing -
[17:17] You: But what I'd like to do
[17:17] You: here now is 3 things
[17:17] You: 1) try to indicante the major transformations in regions and cities
[17:18] You: 2) examine how technology plays into these scenarios
[17:18] You: and 3) explain how the economy affects spatial transformation
[17:19] You: In terms of technology's effects vis a vis economic and social change for spatial transformation
[17:19] You: Waht's really happening is the transformation of spatial form
[17:19] You: I.e. the transforamtion of urban settlements
[17:19] You: urban settlements meaning settlements beyond a certain size
[17:20] You: For the UN and urban area comprises a place where more than 2,500 people live together - an arbitrary defintion
[17:20] You: The rate of urbanization beyond a social size is the main transformation seen in the world at large.
[17:21] You: We've now crossed a threshold of nubmers of urban populations living in cities
[17:22] You: In orther worlds, the planet has a majority of urban population population for the 1st time in history.
[17:22] Bruce Flyer is Online
[17:23] Bruce Flyer: Hi everyone
[17:23] You: 80% in South america live in cities
[17:23] You: Hello Bruce.
[17:23] You: In Westerna nd Northern Europe, this population is 82%
[17:23] You: And 80% in Japan and on the Korean Penninsula
[17:23] You: and 76% in russia
[17:23] You: Hello Bruce
[17:23] Diego Ibanez is Offline
[17:24] You: In other areas 35% in 2000 in China lived in cities, and this is changing dramatically.
[17:24] You: 30% in India
[17:24] You: 40% in SE Asia
[17:24] You: and 25-27% in Sub saharan Africa
[17:24] You: However, projections of demographics for
[17:25] You: the next 25 years, for rural areas - show the fastes rates of urbanization ever.
[17:25] You: In china, in 1996, there were 377 million over 1.3 bilion in China, and
[17:26] You: by 2020, there will be signficantly over 700 million i.e. a doubling will occur.
[17:26] You: And the population of China by 2020 is expected to be 1.6 billion
[17:27] You: So about 1/2 of the chinese population in 2020 will live in cities.
[17:27] Boston Hutchinson: if every village had fiber optics and cheap computers, would that change?
[17:27] You: And similar developments will occur in India and subsaharan Africa
[17:27] Boston Hutchinson: if jobs were mostly in SL, would that change?
[17:27] You: So there will be a massive depopulation in teh countryside.
[17:28] You: If money can be made through the Internet, Boston
[17:28] You: One of the main resasons of this move to cities is for access to jobs
[17:28] Boston Hutchinson: will the call centers move into virtual worlds?
[17:28] Boston Hutchinson: will outsourcing be urban or virtual?
[17:28] You: And the largest urbanization in human history will occur.
[17:29] You: The XO - one laptop per child - the $185 dollar laptop, and other low cost computers, may faciliatate this
[17:29] Geda Hax is Online
[17:30] You: But urbanization is occurring, and its a massive transformation
[17:30] Boston Hutchinson: in 2020, the $100 should buy a lot more computer than any of us has
[17:30] You: So 2) in this growth, the most signficant growth is the growth of mega metropolitcan areas
[17:30] You: The larger the size of the city, the faster the growth of the city, because
[17:30] You: :), hopefull, Boston
[17:32] You: and c)
[17:32] You: and b) in large metropolitan areas, there's a concentration with most opportnity:
[17:32] You: jobs, health care, and power and wealth
[17:32] You: and c) (lag) an even faster concentration will occur in megapolitan areas
[17:33] You: 3) Metropolitan areas are generating
[17:34] You: a) a new typ of urban form, without precedent in history - metropolitcan regions, different from cities.
[17:34] You: Take the San Francisco Bay Area in terms of spatial contribution -
[17:34] You: in functional terms, it's a metrpolitan area from the north bay to Santa Cruz
[17:35] You: And it's connected to teh central California valley - from Stockton, to Fresno, and to some degree to Sacramento
[17:35] You: So this comprises something more than a typcial 9 counties of 6.2 billion.
[17:36] You: And there are 7.5 nillion in the greater Bay Area
[17:36] You: Similar processes are occurring in the New York New Jersey area, and for example, in terms of the southern California spatil unit, between Ventura and south of Orange county.
[17:37] You: which actually extends in continutiyt to San Diego and Tijuana
[17:37] You: What's the definition?
[17:37] You: between metropolics and megalopolis?
[17:37] Eshi Otawara is Offline
[17:37] You: It's typically made in terms of populations
[17:38] You: An urban area is an area with a dense concentration of population
[17:38] You: And metropolitcan areas are large conubations of cities and suburbs
[17:39] You: Cities are multifunctional
[17:39] You: they include activities, services, residential and industiral areas
[17:39] You: And suburbs are typcially residential or industiral
[17:39] You: So urbanization is creating new animals.
[17:40] You: If one goes to the outskirts of metropolitcan area of Vacaville in northern California, where computing is central to its core
[17:40] You: You have a kind of exurbia
[17:40] You: And if these three areas connect, with different cetneres
[17:41] You: there should be a new name
[17:41] You: for conurbation, metropolis, and megalooplis - there's no agrement in the literature
[17:41] Breen Mathy is Online
[17:42] You: So, a metropolitan region is comprised by differetn nuclei and systems
[17:42] You: that become one system that cannont be explained without the other
[17:42] You: So, one empirical definition - communting labor markets
[17:42] Boston Hutchinson: and how do you distinguish between Manhattan, where you can walk across town versus LA, where there isn't really a center that matters?
[17:43] You: different centers and nuclei
[17:43] You: So the space of commuting to work defines a metropolitcan area
[17:43] You: It used to be taht metropolitcan areas were much smaller
[17:44] You: Technically this increase in scale leads to faster transportation systems
[17:44] You: The actual calculation is the ratio between distanced travelled over time travlled.
[17:45] You: and travel is expanding.
[17:45] You: So those are the major transformations in regions and cities
[17:45] You: (some of )
[17:46] Boston Hutchinson: Will this trend continue? If we don't stop driving to work, the place we drive to may be under water.
[17:46] You: Some of the social changes include massive participation of paid women into the labor force
[17:46] Joe Petrel is Online
[17:46] You: and a commuting space for 2 in a household.
[17:46] You: Agreed, but urbanization - is the signficant trend that demographers anticipate in
[17:46] You: the next 50 years or so.
[17:47] You: even with the Internet
[17:47] You: Households are placed now in a much braoder space
[17:47] You: where a job is the primary factor in influencing choice of where to live, and housing second.
[17:48] Boston Hutchinson: I think they're assuming that the technological revolution is over, when it's just starting.
[17:48] You: One of the myths the media helps promote is or mobility
[17:48] You: but residential mobility has decreased in the US
[17:48] You: And Europeans don't move.
[17:48] You: Adn Now good mortgages are hard to find, althought that may be getting slightly easier
[17:49] AndrewMD Oh: i think that assertion depends on the type of industry the city has, services or industrial cities have different characteristics and therefre their evolution will be different
[17:49] Andromeda Mesmer: When there was the internet boom in California -- people took high payng jobs, but sometimes had to sleep in their cars -- taken to a real extreme.
[17:50] You: Not only are we in a wave of urbanization, but it's a new kind of urbanization
[17:50] You: 2.5 million people live in Paris, France
[17:50] Boston Hutchinson: I think the trend is to live close enough to be able to commute occasionally
[17:50] You: But 8.5 million live in the Paris metropolitan area, in satellite towns, and sububrs
[17:51] You: And France has the fastest speed train.
[17:51] You: Interesting points
[17:51] You: In the last 10 minutes, let's talk about some of the points you bring up.
[17:51] Bruce Flyer: i would like to find employment with benefits "here"
[17:52] Boston Hutchinson: Where's "here"? SL?
[17:52] Boston Hutchinson: I see
[17:52] Bruce Flyer: online, not necessarily in SL
[17:52] You: Perhaps you're right Boston, but city demographers aren't using IT to explain a change in these trends, that I've seen.
[17:53] Bruce Flyer: are there any major employers hiring in SL yet?
[17:53] You: Yes, Andrew
[17:53] Bruce Flyer: i would have to get "dress for success" for avatars
[17:53] You: Yes, Andromeda - the boom in Silicon Valley was incredible, with interesting social consequence, but some while ago, people were talking about the window closing :)
[17:54] Boston Hutchinson: It seems to me that the metropolitican (is that the word?) areas in CA are trending toward the occasional commute model.
[17:54] You: so many millionaires were minted in a very small amount of time, which isn't happening at nearly the same rate.
[17:54] Andromeda Mesmer: The Germans have a government run employment centre. And IBM has lots of employees -- but those were hired in the RL first.
[17:54] Boston Hutchinson: Isn't there also a trend toward self-employment?
[17:55] You: The occasionall commute is a facet of this process of urbanzation.
[17:55] Eshi Otawara is Online
[17:55] Andromeda Mesmer: Well the artists in SL can run their own businesses, like artists in RL.
[17:55] Boston Hutchinson: :)
[17:55] You: SL is an interesting case - cities aren't springing up here.
[17:56] Boston Hutchinson: And there are a lot more artists than there used to be
[17:56] You: And many companeis that bought into SL, have pulled back a little, not knowing how to make money here yet.
[17:56] Bruce Flyer: here
[17:56] AndrewMD Oh: :)
[17:56] Bruce Flyer: there are no cities because there is no need for water systems
[17:57] You: I misspelled metropolitan, Boston, but you just coined a new Califronia word.
[17:57] Boston Hutchinson: We have perfectly good water systems without a city. Just dig a hole in the ground. :)
[17:57] You: :)
[17:57] AndrewMD Oh: place doesn´t make space
[17:58] AndrewMD Oh: cities are spaces and not just places
[17:58] You: But perhaps we can cultivate new processes in SL that replace the massive changes due to urbanzition ahead
[17:58] AndrewMD Oh: in SL we see many places but they are not spaces
[17:58] Breen Mathy is Offline
[17:58] Andromeda Mesmer: However sometimes they just have very strong associations.
[17:58] Andromeda Mesmer: Even if there are no real cities, still there are groupings, and successful businesses attract other businesses, and the rent goes up. Everybody could live in isolation, but they don't.
[17:58] Andromeda Mesmer: Via TP links.
[17:59] Boston Hutchinson: I wish we could all teleport to work in RL!
[17:59] AndrewMD Oh: exactly, you create a city by transforming the place into space
[17:59] Bruce Flyer: do people with houses in SL usually "park" their avatars there every night?
[17:59] You: If space refers to meanings associated with place, that's true Andrew, whereas placee is phsycial.
[17:59] AndrewMD Oh: in the case of SL there are communities transforming place into space or micro cities
[17:59] Patrio Graysmark is Online
[18:00] You: Let's contiue to chat, as we close the class . . . I need to move outside from the cafe I'm in
[18:00] Bruce Flyer: but we have no identity here based upon location do we?
[18:00] Perry Proudhon is Online
[18:00] AndrewMD Oh: again you are talking about a place
[18:00] Boston Hutchinson: Interesting point, Bruce
[18:00] You: For those who need to go, thank you for coming, and see you next week.
[18:00] AndrewMD Oh: location means place
[18:01] AndrewMD Oh: the space creation is linked to identity
[18:01] You: But in some ways we do, Bruce - I think most of us have an identity associated with avirtual isalnd - n'est-ce pas?
[18:01] Claryssa Schmidt: thanks :)
[18:01] Bruce Flyer: thank you Aphilo
[18:01] Boston Hutchinson: Thanks for class, Aphilo.
[18:01] AndrewMD Oh: yes, many thanks, I might leave as well
[18:01] You: :)
[18:01] AndrewMD Oh: have a good night, here in Europe is almost 2:00 am
[18:01] Mec Benelli: Thanks
[18:02] You have offered friendship to Mec Benelli
[18:02] You have offered friendship to AndrewMD Oh
[18:02] AndrewMD Oh is Online
[18:02] Mec Benelli is Online
[18:02] Mec Benelli: It is 4.00 am
[18:02] AndrewMD Oh: :-)
[18:02] AndrewMD Oh: see you next week
[18:02] You: early :)
[18:02] AndrewMD Oh: Good by all
[18:02] Boston Hutchinson: Good bye
[18:03] AndrewMD Oh is Offline
[18:03] Bruce Flyer: i would like to have an association with Harvard in RL but the fact that my avatar comes here frequently does not really cause that to happen -- at least not yet
[18:03] You: Good nght
[18:03] Bruce Flyer: maybe someday we will explore avatar psychology
[18:04] Mariamo Babii is Offline
[18:04] Boston Hutchinson: I've learned that Ray Kurzweil has an avatar, and intends to make her autonomous
[18:04] You: True
[18:04] Boston Hutchinson: yes
[18:04] Bruce Flyer: Ramona?
[18:04] Andromeda Mesmer: That is very interesting,Boston.
[18:04] Boston Hutchinson: but as far as i know, she's not in SL
[18:05] You: A good starting place is Sherry Turkle's book "Life on the Screen"
[18:05] Boston Hutchinson: He has full motor control, including facial expressions and voice
[18:05] Bruce Flyer: if she visits an island the required compulation might crash the island
[18:05] You: As well, as Stanford's Bailenson's and Nick Yee's work
[18:05] Boston Hutchinson: via his ownmotions
[18:05] Boston Hutchinson: it takes a lot of computers and software
[18:06] Bruce Flyer: it would be nice to build a collorative brain for an autonomous avatar
[18:06] You: And Mitch Kapor, one of the first investors in SL is banking on a camera to facilitate aspects of avatar agency.
[18:06] Boston Hutchinson: in a few years, we'll all have that much computing power
[18:07] Boston Hutchinson: yes, and mitch and ray have a bet on the Turing Test
[18:07] Andromeda Mesmer: Well, SL is getting more powerful so you never know. I discussed inventory with people last night, since I have an inventory of 39 K now -- apparently an inventory of 10 K would have crashed avatars in the early days, but now some have 60 K, 100 K ...
[18:07] Bruce Flyer: wow
[18:07] You: I agree, Boston, but you've outlined some limitations to synthesizing text, say,
[18:08] You: from SL to form an avatar brain
[18:08] You: Although I think this is a fruitful line of research.
[18:08] Bruce Flyer: i guess i have a light pixelprint
[18:08] Boston Hutchinson: The avatar controls would run on your own computer, just as they do now
[18:09] Boston Hutchinson: but, of course, they aren't very realisitic yet and that will take more processing at Linden
[18:09] You: Will inventory be a determining factor in questions of avatar agency, I wonder.
[18:09] Bruce Flyer: inventory of cognitive objects -- Minsky's Society of Mind perhaps
[18:10] Boston Hutchinson: the avatar brain would be on the avatar's computer, not on SL's
[18:10] Boston Hutchinson: the wager between Kurzweil and Kapor is for 2029
[18:10] Bruce Flyer: gives new meaning to thin client
[18:10] Diego Ibanez is Online
[18:10] Daisyblue Hefferman is Offline
[18:11] Bruce Flyer: fat client = smart autonous avatar?
[18:11] You: A co-mingling of hard drive and neural processes, with different intermediary technologies like a keyboard - perhaps brainfingers - http://brainfingers.com, for example.
[18:12] Boston Hutchinson: I think the inventory issue has more to do with the SL business model than with technology
[18:13] Boston Hutchinson: no keyboard
[18:13] You: True, as well as possible outcomes . . .
[18:13] Boston Hutchinson: Kurzweil predicts that the interface between you and the virtual world will be by nanobots at the synases inthe brain
[18:13] Andromeda Mesmer: Well, a German IT guy told me, when I was a fresh newbie, that I could have as much of anything as I wanted, and that ANYTHING ELSE WOULD NOT MAKE SENSE. Since I was used to limits in memory, from the old days, I was kind of shell-shocked for 3 days -- then started grabbing every script, gesture, and so forth in sight.
[18:13] SamBivalent Spork is Offline
[18:13] Bruce Flyer: and i thought table PC was advanced
[18:14] You: Could be, but http://brainfingers.com already offers an interface between hands-less computer use, including the production of words.
[18:14] Andromeda Mesmer: One of the biggest problems in SL for people is how to manage their inventory, not the size -- and I have learned how to manage mine -- it is pretty well organized.
[18:15] Boston Hutchinson: There's clearly a confluence of technology, art and business that makes the future very hard to predict.
[18:15] Andromeda Mesmer: "very hard" is an understatement :)
[18:15] Boston Hutchinson: I can't manage my inventory, and it's almost nothing!
[18:15] You: And novel, accidental and unforseen convergences have been signficant in the development of the Internet.
[18:16] You: very
[18:17] Boston Hutchinson: Stross' vision in Accelerando is vary similar to Kurzweil's but with a lot of colorful additions to make for good fiction.
[18:18] Boston Hutchinson: I'm not sure that the convergences were unforseen by everybody.
[18:18] Bruce Flyer: i wish my professional association would meet here. it costs a bundle to go somewhere to present a paper for the vitae
[18:18] Boston Hutchinson: There were people who made some predictions that were close, including Kurzweil.
[18:19] You: Perhaps, but TCP / IP and Request for Comments as a key process were a work in progress, so to speak.
[18:19] Boston Hutchinson: Give ita few years,Bruce.
[18:19] Bruce Flyer: :-)
[18:19] You: And while Marshall McLuhan foresaw a global communciation network in the 60s, Berners-Lee couldn't have foreseen or written http and html
[18:20] You: with TCP / IP
[18:20] Bruce Flyer: brb
[18:20] Boston Hutchinson: Yes, but people were thinking about what the interface would look like long before we had the hardware to run it on
[18:20] You: I'm need to take off . . .
[18:21] Boston Hutchinson: and there were network protocols in the 60's. some of the best, in fact.
[18:21] You: True - ARPANET first transmitted digital code in 1969, I think.
[18:22] You: See you next week.
[18:22] You: Very nice to chat.
[18:22] Boston Hutchinson: The Lanning protocol, was earlier, i think, and may be the theoretically optimal arbitration scheme
[18:22] You: :)
[18:22] Andromeda Mesmer: I just remembered a funny point raised about predictions -- I think it was Robert Heinlein who said that many people predicted a manned landing on the moon, but nobody predicted that it would be seen on live TV.
[18:22] Boston Hutchinson: See you. Thanks!
[18:23] Andromeda Mesmer: Well, I should be off too.
[18:23] Spider Mycron is Offline
[18:23] Boston Hutchinson: Interesting point,ANdromeda
[18:23] Andromeda Mesmer: Well the social aspects of change are not easily predicted - like the change in courtship habits, when the car appeared.
[18:24] Boston Hutchinson: Back to RL. I haven't gotten my wife and kids to move to SL yet, but I'm working on it.
[18:24] Boston Hutchinson: :}
[18:24] You: We haven't examined TV as information technology in depth yest, Andromeda, although it may have been significant in changing the way the Pentagon carries out war - in that people didn't want to see body bags, after Viet Na, and the Pentagon has consequently been very careful about creating American casualities.
[18:24] Bruce Flyer: maybe we have something in common that could be the basis for our organizing a professional association here and having annual conferences
[18:24] Andromeda Mesmer: It can be mind-boggling -- a nurse from Scotland was telling me -- inToronto -- that her cat was watching me on the screen, and really fascinated by the movements :)
[18:25] Bruce Flyer: LOL
[18:25] You: I'm posting the transcript.
[18:25] You: See you next week.
[18:25] Andromeda Mesmer: See you Aphilo --
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