| 
  • If you are citizen of an European Union member nation, you may not use this service unless you are at least 16 years old.

  • You already know Dokkio is an AI-powered assistant to organize & manage your digital files & messages. Very soon, Dokkio will support Outlook as well as One Drive. Check it out today!

View
 

Feb 27 2008 Soc and Info Tech class transcript

Page history last edited by PBworks 15 years, 9 months ago

Society and Information Technology in Second Life

Wednesdays, January 9 - July 30, 2008, 4-6, SLT/PT, 7-9 pm ET

on Berkman island in Second Life - http://slurl.com/secondlife/Berkman/114/70/25

Course homepage - http://socinfotech.pbwiki.com

 

Instructor: Scott MacLeod (not on Harvard's faculty) = Aphilo Aarde (in Second Life)

http://scottmacleod.com/papers.htm

 

 

Feb 27 2008 Soc and Info Tech class transcript

 

[15:46]  Luna Bliss is Online

[15:46]  Froukje Hoorenbeek is Online

[15:46]  Annette Paster is Online

[15:46]  Andromeda Mesmer is Online

[15:46]  Spider Mycron is Online

[15:46]  Mariamo Babii is Online

[15:46]  SamBivalent Spork is Online

[15:46]  Jon Seattle is Online

[15:46]  Champler Snook is Online

[15:46]  Daisyblue Hefferman is Online

[15:46]  Barbie Starr is Online

[15:46]  Connecting to in-world Voice Chat...

[15:46]  Connected

[15:46]  You decline Life Heartbeat Class Area, Epirrita (35, 39, 525) from A group member named Spider Mycron.

[15:46]  You decline Virtual Web Symposium -event & streaming details from A group member named Sarasvati Kohime.

[15:46]  You decline Life Heartbeat Class Area, Epirrita (35, 39, 525) from A group member named Spider Mycron.

[15:46]  A group member named 57 Miles gave you Zebra Presenter - BETA (boxed).

[15:54]  Mec Benelli: Hello, Is this an open lecture?

[15:55]  You: Hi Mec

[15:55]  You: Yes, you're welcome to attend this class.

[15:55]  Mec Benelli: Hi Aphilo

[15:56]  Mec Benelli: Thank you very much

[15:56]  You: Here's the course wiki - http://socinfotech.pbwiki.com

[15:56]  Mec Benelli: Thanks

[15:56]  Mec Benelli: I am from Finland

[15:57]  You: It must be early in the morning there.

[15:57]  You: Do you happen to know Pekka Himanen, by any chance?

[15:57]  Mec Benelli: I know his work but not in person

[15:58]  You: I'll be right back . . .

[15:58]  You: Hello Andrew MD

[15:58]  AndrewMD Oh: Hello

[15:58]  Mec Benelli: Hello

[16:00]  AndrewMD Oh: there is a bit of lag

[16:00]  Mec Benelli: Yes .. as always , hehe

[16:01]  AndrewMD Oh: :-)

[16:01]  You: Hello Jules

[16:01]  Mec Benelli: Have to sit tight

[16:01]  Jules Usbourne: hey

[16:01]  You: Lag here too

[16:02]  AndrewMD Oh: yes, Sir

[16:02]  Boston Hutchinson is Online

[16:02]  You: Are you here for Society and Information Technology Jules and Andrew?

[16:02]  Jules Usbourne: certainly am

[16:03]  Jules Usbourne: a little taster maybe

[16:03]  You: Great - here's the wiki - http://socinfotech.pbwiki.com

[16:03]  You: Hi Bolt

[16:03]  You: Welcome

[16:03]  You: Hello Boston

[16:03]  You: Hello Spang

[16:03]  Bolt Bashly: hello, ty

[16:03]  Spang Nastula: hi

[16:03]  Boston Hutchinson: Hi Aphilo

[16:04]  Claryssa Schmidt is Online

[16:04]  You: So this is a course on Society and Information Technology - at large participation is welcome.

[16:05]  You: We're continuing to examine how the IT revolution developed, and the transcripts

[16:05]  You: from previous classes are posted at http://socinfotech.pbwiki.com

[16:05]  You: Hi Claryssa!

[16:06]  You: One interesting aspect of SL is the possibility for multiple lines of reasoning that group chats make possible.

[16:06]  You: So I suspect you may be able to complement some of the areas we'll explore this evening.

[16:07]  You: It makes our conversations richer when you do, so you are welcome to contribute.

[16:07]  You: Hello Rain.

[16:07]  Rain Ninetails: hi!

[16:08]  You: In the past I've found that a kind of flow experience occurs when people chat at the same time . . .

[16:08]  You: Tonight we'll look at some of the cultures that gave rise to the Internet,

[16:08]  You: as well as at the Informational City in relation to the IT revolution

[16:09]  You: We'll examine this latter aspect after the break.

[16:09]  You: Hello Andromeda.

[16:09]  Rain Ninetails: :)

[16:09]  You: This course is perhaps best

[16:09]  Andromeda Mesmer: Hi Aphilo -- thanks for the TP, Rain - large scale failures reported today.

[16:10]  You: conceieved as an examination of a paradigm shift

[16:10]  You: that occurred, that is on a par with other industrial revolutions.

[16:11]  You: And what we're examining here is ways in which this paradigm shift affects

[16:11]  You: every aspect of the society and economic processes.

[16:11]  You: allowing one to do things in specific ways that you couldn't do before, with effects through the entire social structure.

[16:12]  AndrewMD Oh: is this based on some work done by Professor Carlota Perez, Sir?

[16:12]  You: The first far-reaching effect of this IT revolution is that its effects on the economy and society are PERVASIVE

[16:13]  You: I'm very interested in long time Berkeley Professor Manuel Castells' analyses of the Network Society

[16:13]  You: And draw on his work in some measure.

[16:13]  AndrewMD Oh: ok

[16:14]  You: The 2nd thing that occurs in this IT revolution is that fundamental change is at the core of generating and changing information.

[16:15]  You: And as we've explored before, this paradigm shift arose due to three main technological developments - the innovations that emerge with microelectronics, computers and telecommunications

[16:15]  You: starting in large part in the 1950s.

[16:16]  You: A fourth aspect of this IT revolution involves genetic engineering, but we dont' examine that in depth here.

[16:17]  You: So, the four cultures that gave rise to the IT revolution

[16:17]  Chinadoll Lulu is Online

[16:17]  Arawn Spitteler is Online

[16:17]  You: include 1 technomeritocratic culture

[16:17]  Eshi Otawara is Online

[16:17]  You: 2 Hacker culture

[16:18]  You: 3) communitarian culture

[16:18]  You: and 4) and much later - first in the mid -1990s - entrepreneurialism

[16:18]  You: Briefly,

[16:19]  You: the technomeritocratic culture is one that valued GOOD technology

[16:19]  You: Good software was a supreme value.

[16:19]  You: The model here is similar to the academic world

[16:19]  You: which is supposed to be based on EXCELLENCE

[16:20]  You: So the value of excellence combined with the joy of discovery did influence many of the technologies that gave rise to the Intneret

[16:21]  You: ...including early networks, like ARPANET in the late 60s and early 70s

[16:21]  You: TCP/IP in the mid-1970s - which are the protocols which guide packet switching

[16:22]  You: USENET - the first user groups articulation with ARPANET in the late 70s and early 80s

[16:22]  You: and the WWW - Tim Berners-Lee's writing of http and html in the late 80s and early 90s

[16:23]  You: http is hypertext transfer protocol - the web addressing protocol, and html is hyper text markup language, still the language of web pages

[16:24]  You: and numerous other technologies, were all influenced by this technomeritocratic ethos -

[16:24]  You: where money played a relatively insignificant role, and making good software was the key thing

[16:25]  You: So in the Technomeritocratic culture, excellence and meritocracy are guiding processes

[16:25]  You: For example, Vint Cerf, the self-proclaimed father of the the Internet, and a key writer of TCP/IP

[16:26]  You: used Defense Department monies - public monies - because he wanted good software to be available to everyone.

[16:26]  You: 2) On the basis of the above culture a 2nd culture emerged

[16:26]  You: Hacker Culture

[16:27]  You: And Pekka Himanens' "The Hacker Ethic"

[16:27]  You: explores this

[16:27]  You: He explains herethe relationship between hacker and Internet culture

[16:28]  Spider Mycron is Offline

[16:28]  You: For him, a hacker is the media construct which breaks the law - these are so-called crackers

[16:28]  You: Rather, a hacker is someone for whom good software is the most important thing.

[16:29]  You: It's one who hacks - who says "I'm going to find a new solution", and then shares it.

[16:29]  You: So hackers here are not 2 things - they aren't criminals

[16:30]  You: hackers hate crackers

[16:30]  You: which are 2) a sub culture

[16:30]  You: Crackers crack codes for the challengeof it

[16:30]  SamBivalent Spork is Offline

[16:30]  You: They create viruses

[16:30]  You: They make problems for governments

[16:31]  You: There are also political crackers

[16:31]  You: Most crackers are kids playing, challenging the world.

[16:31]  You: So, hackers take pleasure out of hacking.

[16:31]  You: How Hacker Culture relates to the Internet

[16:32]  You: In this viw, Hackers think that free speech is free software - free, good software

[16:32]  You: And companies threaten this.

[16:32]  You: A minority says that software should be free

[16:33]  Luna Bliss is Offline

[16:33]  You: For example - Linux

[16:33]  You: And the majority need free software to improve software - through free software and information exchange.

[16:33]  You: named after Linus Torvalds

[16:33]  You: ...another Finn (Himanen is alos Finnish) - FREIX

[16:34]  SamBivalent Spork is Online

[16:34]  You: was the first name of of LINUX

[16:34]  You: but server administrators called it Linux - Torvalds released

[16:35]  You: the program because he watned the program to be improved.

[16:35]  You: Welcom Natalina - this is a course on Society and Informatnion Techniology - http://socinfotech.pbwiki.com - at large participation is welcom

[16:36]  You: and 1000s and 1000s of people improved LINUX

[16:36]  You: - all for FREE

[16:36]  You: Why keep it free?

[16:36]  You: Because if you freeze it for yourself

[16:36]  You: you close it off

[16:36]  You: So in Hacker culture - 1) you give in order to be given to

[16:37]  You: And 2) prestige is important among hackers, so hackers write for each otehr for free

[16:37]  You: And most hackers can get money, but not all can be recognized.

[16:37]  Breen Mathy is Online

[16:37]  You: Hackers aren't against money, but against money as a supreme value.

[16:38]  You: so some parts of the technomeritocratic culture and to much of hacker culture

[16:39]  You: it's essential to keep free all key software in the Internet

[16:39]  You: 3 COMMUNITARIAN CULTURE

[16:39]  You: The Internet was not made up solely of Hackers

[16:39]  Breen Mathy is Offline

[16:40]  You: In the 70s and the 80s, when email was the most used application

[16:40]  You: as were bbs - bulletin board systems

[16:40]  Breen Mathy is Online

[16:40]  You: the Internet was an important way for people to communicate with people

[16:40]  You: Community took shape on line

[16:41]  You: for the sharing of information

[16:41]  You: and through chat rooms, and listservs, as well.

[16:41]  You: 4) ENTREPRENEURIAL CULTURE

[16:41]  You: This began to play a significant role only in the 1990s

[16:41]  Spider Mycron is Online

[16:41]  You: The mentality here was - "all this is great - let's make a pile of money"

[16:42]  You: But Infomration Technology was a risky investment

[16:42]  You: So a business emerged out of applications.

[16:42]  You: And this helped diffuse the Internet to the rest of the world, and led to

[16:42]  You: the development of markets, as well as wide spread use by people

[16:43]  You: The importance of these cultures that infomred the Internet and the IT Revolution

[16:43]  You: goes from top to bottom.

[16:43]  You: 1) the technomeritocratic

[16:43]  You: 2 hacker

[16:43]  You: 3 communitarian

[16:44]  You: and 4) entrepreneurial

[16:44]  Breen Mathy is Offline

[16:45]  You: We'll take a break at about 5 SLT / PST

[16:45]  You: for 10 minutes or so

[16:45]  You: And next week Boston has offered to talk about Ray Kurzweil's vision -

[16:46]  You: Kurzweil, affiliated with MIT, has one of the most successful track records at prognosticating the future of the Internet.

[16:46]  Diego Ibanez is Online

[16:46]  You: Is there anything you'd like to add about this now?

[16:46]  You: Boston/

[16:47]  Boston Hutchinson: He's predicting that the rate of change will continue to accelerate

[16:47]  Boston Hutchinson: so that asingularity occurs before the middle of the century

[16:48]  You: Can you explain what singualarity is

[16:48]  Boston Hutchinson: at which point, the difference between human and machine intelligence, and indeed the difference between humans and non-humans will blur beyond recognition

[16:49]  You: Thanks

[16:49]  You: Both Boston and Andromeda

[16:49]  You: have given interesting presentations in past weeks

[16:49]  You: on Croquet - another virtual world, which will partly reside locally, on your own machine

[16:50]  Eshi Otawara is Offline

[16:50]  Boston Hutchinson: a singularity is a point where a mathematical formula breaks down and doesn't give an answer (like infinity), or the boundary of a black hole, where essentially no information is visible

[16:50]  You: and Charlie Stross', Heinlein's, and a little about Steve Mann's visions.

[16:50]  You: I suspect that

[16:51]  You: some of you have specialized knowledge or interests, relation to the IT revolution, whether it be envisioning th efuture, or how it is affecting social and economic processes

[16:51]  You: and if you'd like to present something here, you are welcom to

[16:52]  You: Are there any questions or observations thus far?

[16:54]  You: There is a group for this course Soc & Info Tech - Aphilo on Berkman - thorugh which

[16:54]  You: we make occasional announcements.

[16:54]  Andromeda Mesmer: Just to add a little about the popularity of Charlie Stross book -- HALTING STATE about the near future world has gone into a 2nd printing, and he will write a sequel.

[16:55]  You: Thanks

[16:55]  You: Any questions or observations? (I encourage you to particpate in the conversation)

[16:55]  You: Well let's take a break now, and come back at 5 minutes past the hour.

[16:55]  You: See you soon.

[16:55]  SamBivalent Spork is Online

[16:56]  Andromeda Mesmer: OK. I'm off to the RL fridge :)

[16:56]  You: And I will post this transcript to teh wiki - http://socinfotech.pbwiki.com

[16:56]  You: :)

[16:56]  You: :)

[16:57]  You decline How to make a Movie in SL - pack from A group member named Spider Mycron.

[16:58]  Eshi Otawara is Online

[17:01]  Diego Ibanez is Offline

[17:02]  Claryssa Schmidt is Online

[17:06]  Rain Ninetails: hi Oshi!

[17:06]  Oshi Pixie: hiya

[17:06]  You: Hello

[17:06]  Rain Ninetails: :)

[17:06]  Rain Ninetails: meet friend Andromeda on my left

[17:06]  Oshi Pixie: pleasure to meet you

[17:07]  Andromeda Mesmer: Hi -!

[17:07]  You: I've posted the first half of tonight's transcript to http://socinfotech.pbwiki.com

[17:07]  You: Hi Oshi - Welcome

[17:07]  Oshi Pixie: thx aphilo

[17:08]  You: So, we're going to move away from the cultures that informed the development of the IT revolution

[17:08]  You: to Information TEchnology and spatial transformation.

[17:09]  You: conversation makes the course interesting.

[17:09]  You: And again, I suspect you may have specialized knowledges, or if you would like to contribut generally, please do.

[17:09]  You: Welcom Harris

[17:10]  You: So, the spatial transformation we're talking about is of the world itself, affected by technology but also the Network Society.

[17:10]  You: This course is explaining how the Network Society emerged

[17:11]  Diego Ibanez is Online

[17:11]  You: Spaces express these transformations

[17:11]  You: They express the habitat we live in, and the society.

[17:11]  You: And these transofrmation are far-reaching, and may be complicated by both reports by the media, with their prohecies of the future.

[17:12]  You: Concerning Information TEchnology's effects on urban living, the media's views are often plain wrong.

[17:13]  You: the basic prediciton has long been, that the more we go into the IT Rev, the less cities makes sense is wrong, too.

[17:13]  You: The electronic cottage theory - no more traffic, no more cities, - just countryside and pretty houses `

[17:14]  You: :) - look at Silicon Valley - this hasn't happened.

[17:14]  You: Smart cars and trains, for example, have emerged to deal with traffic.

[17:14]  Xirconnia Morphett is Online

[17:14]  You: How many of you work from home, primarliy through digital technologies. I'm curious - I know at least one.

[17:15]  Boston Hutchinson: Maybe it just hasn't started yet

[17:15]  Boston Hutchinson: i do

[17:15]  You: Does anyone else here?

[17:15]  Oshi Pixie: i'd like 2 eventually

[17:15]  You: Perhaps . . .

[17:15]  You: It's very possible.

[17:15]  You: Mec, Bolt?

[17:15]  Andromeda Mesmer: I do , partly.

[17:15]  Bolt Bashly: a bit

[17:16]  You: Jules, Rain, AndrewMD?

[17:16]  Mec Benelli: Partly yes

[17:16]  Rain Ninetails: sometimes. I'd like to more

[17:16]  You: Would you like to, and do you foresee this happening, say, five years out?

[17:17]  You: So it's not that things aren't changing -

[17:17]  You: But what I'd like to do

[17:17]  You: here now is 3 things

[17:17]  You: 1) try to indicante the major transformations in regions and cities

[17:18]  You: 2) examine how technology plays into these scenarios

[17:18]  You: and 3) explain how the economy affects spatial transformation

[17:19]  You: In terms of technology's effects vis a vis economic and social change for spatial transformation

[17:19]  You: Waht's really happening is the transformation of spatial form

[17:19]  You: I.e. the transforamtion of urban settlements

[17:19]  You: urban settlements meaning settlements beyond a certain size

[17:20]  You: For the UN and urban area comprises a place where more than 2,500 people live together - an arbitrary defintion

[17:20]  You: The rate of urbanization beyond a social size is the main transformation seen in the world at large.

[17:21]  You: We've now crossed a threshold of nubmers of urban populations living in cities

[17:22]  You: In orther worlds, the planet has a majority of urban population population for the 1st time in history.

[17:22]  Bruce Flyer is Online

[17:23]  Bruce Flyer: Hi everyone

[17:23]  You: 80% in South america live in cities

[17:23]  You: Hello Bruce.

[17:23]  You: In Westerna nd Northern Europe, this population is 82%

[17:23]  You: And 80% in Japan and on the Korean Penninsula

[17:23]  You: and 76% in russia

[17:23]  You: Hello Bruce

[17:23]  Diego Ibanez is Offline

[17:24]  You: In other areas 35% in 2000 in China lived in cities, and this is changing dramatically.

[17:24]  You: 30% in India

[17:24]  You: 40% in SE Asia

[17:24]  You: and 25-27% in Sub saharan Africa

[17:24]  You: However, projections of demographics for

[17:25]  You: the next 25 years, for rural areas - show the fastes rates of urbanization ever.

[17:25]  You: In china, in 1996, there were 377 million over 1.3 bilion in China, and

[17:26]  You: by 2020, there will be signficantly over 700 million i.e. a doubling will occur.

[17:26]  You: And the population of China by 2020 is expected to be 1.6 billion

[17:27]  You: So about 1/2 of the chinese population in 2020 will live in cities.

[17:27]  Boston Hutchinson: if every village had fiber optics and cheap computers, would that change?

[17:27]  You: And similar developments will occur in India and subsaharan Africa

[17:27]  Boston Hutchinson: if jobs were mostly in SL, would that change?

[17:27]  You: So there will be a massive depopulation in teh countryside.

[17:28]  You: If money can be made through the Internet, Boston

[17:28]  You: One of the main resasons of this move to cities is for access to jobs

[17:28]  Boston Hutchinson: will the call centers move into virtual worlds?

[17:28]  Boston Hutchinson: will outsourcing be urban or virtual?

[17:28]  You: And the largest urbanization in human history will occur.

[17:29]  You: The XO - one laptop per child - the $185 dollar laptop, and other low cost computers, may faciliatate this

[17:29]  Geda Hax is Online

[17:30]  You: But urbanization is occurring, and its a massive transformation

[17:30]  Boston Hutchinson: in 2020, the $100 should buy a lot more computer than any of us has

[17:30]  You: So 2) in this growth, the most signficant growth is the growth of mega metropolitcan areas

[17:30]  You: The larger the size of the city, the faster the growth of the city, because

[17:30]  You: :), hopefull, Boston

[17:32]  You: and c)

[17:32]  You: and b) in large metropolitan areas, there's a concentration with most opportnity:

[17:32]  You: jobs, health care, and power and wealth

[17:32]  You: and c) (lag) an even faster concentration will occur in megapolitan areas

[17:33]  You: 3) Metropolitan areas are generating

[17:34]  You: a) a new typ of urban form, without precedent in history - metropolitcan regions, different from cities.

[17:34]  You: Take the San Francisco Bay Area in terms of spatial contribution -

[17:34]  You: in functional terms, it's a metrpolitan area from the north bay to Santa Cruz

[17:35]  You: And it's connected to teh central California valley - from Stockton, to Fresno, and to some degree to Sacramento

[17:35]  You: So this comprises something more than a typcial 9 counties of 6.2 billion.

[17:36]  You: And there are 7.5 nillion in the greater Bay Area

[17:36]  You: Similar processes are occurring in the New York New Jersey area, and for example, in terms of the southern California spatil unit, between Ventura and south of Orange county.

[17:37]  You: which actually extends in continutiyt to San Diego and Tijuana

[17:37]  You: What's the definition?

[17:37]  You: between metropolics and megalopolis?

[17:37]  Eshi Otawara is Offline

[17:37]  You: It's typically made in terms of populations

[17:38]  You: An urban area is an area with a dense concentration of population

[17:38]  You: And metropolitcan areas are large conubations of cities and suburbs

[17:39]  You: Cities are multifunctional

[17:39]  You: they include activities, services, residential and industiral areas

[17:39]  You: And suburbs are typcially residential or industiral

[17:39]  You: So urbanization is creating new animals.

[17:40]  You: If one goes to the outskirts of metropolitcan area of Vacaville in northern California, where computing is central to its core

[17:40]  You: You have a kind of exurbia

[17:40]  You: And if these three areas connect, with different cetneres

[17:41]  You: there should be a new name

[17:41]  You: for conurbation, metropolis, and megalooplis - there's no agrement in the literature

[17:41]  Breen Mathy is Online

[17:42]  You: So, a metropolitan region is comprised by differetn nuclei and systems

[17:42]  You: that become one system that cannont be explained without the other

[17:42]  You: So, one empirical definition - communting labor markets

[17:42]  Boston Hutchinson: and how do you distinguish between Manhattan, where you can walk across town versus LA, where there isn't really a center that matters?

[17:43]  You: different centers and nuclei

[17:43]  You: So the space of commuting to work defines a metropolitcan area

[17:43]  You: It used to be taht metropolitcan areas were much smaller

[17:44]  You: Technically this increase in scale leads to faster transportation systems

[17:44]  You: The actual calculation is the ratio between distanced travelled over time travlled.

[17:45]  You: and travel is expanding.

[17:45]  You: So those are the major transformations in regions and cities

[17:45]  You: (some of )

[17:46]  Boston Hutchinson: Will this trend continue? If we don't stop driving to work, the place we drive to may be under water.

[17:46]  You: Some of the social changes include massive participation of paid women into the labor force

[17:46]  Joe Petrel is Online

[17:46]  You: and a commuting space for 2 in a household.

[17:46]  You: Agreed, but urbanization - is the signficant trend that demographers anticipate in

[17:46]  You: the next 50 years or so.

[17:47]  You: even with the Internet

[17:47]  You: Households are placed now in a much braoder space

[17:47]  You: where a job is the primary factor in influencing choice of where to live, and housing second.

[17:48]  Boston Hutchinson: I think they're assuming that the technological revolution is over, when it's just starting.

[17:48]  You: One of the myths the media helps promote is or mobility

[17:48]  You: but residential mobility has decreased in the US

[17:48]  You: And Europeans don't move.

[17:48]  You: Adn Now good mortgages are hard to find, althought that may be getting slightly easier

[17:49]  AndrewMD Oh: i think that assertion depends on the type of industry the city has, services or industrial cities have different characteristics and therefre their evolution will be different

[17:49]  Andromeda Mesmer: When there was the internet boom in California -- people took high payng jobs, but sometimes had to sleep in their cars -- taken to a real extreme.

[17:50]  You: Not only are we in a wave of urbanization, but it's a new kind of urbanization

[17:50]  You: 2.5 million people live in Paris, France

[17:50]  Boston Hutchinson: I think the trend is to live close enough to be able to commute occasionally

[17:50]  You: But 8.5 million live in the Paris metropolitan area, in satellite towns, and sububrs

[17:51]  You: And France has the fastest speed train.

[17:51]  You: Interesting points

[17:51]  You: In the last 10 minutes, let's talk about some of the points you bring up.

[17:51]  Bruce Flyer: i would like to find employment with benefits "here"

[17:52]  Boston Hutchinson: Where's "here"? SL?

[17:52]  Boston Hutchinson: I see

[17:52]  Bruce Flyer: online, not necessarily in SL

[17:52]  You: Perhaps you're right Boston, but city demographers aren't using IT to explain a change in these trends, that I've seen.

[17:53]  Bruce Flyer: are there any major employers hiring in SL yet?

[17:53]  You: Yes, Andrew

[17:53]  Bruce Flyer: i would have to get "dress for success" for avatars

[17:53]  You: Yes, Andromeda - the boom in Silicon Valley was incredible, with interesting social consequence, but some while ago, people were talking about the window closing :)

[17:54]  Boston Hutchinson: It seems to me that the metropolitican (is that the word?) areas in CA are trending toward the occasional commute model.

[17:54]  You: so many millionaires were minted in a very small amount of time, which isn't happening at nearly the same rate.

[17:54]  Andromeda Mesmer: The Germans have a government run employment centre. And IBM has lots of employees -- but those were hired in the RL first.

[17:54]  Boston Hutchinson: Isn't there also a trend toward self-employment?

[17:55]  You: The occasionall commute is a facet of this process of urbanzation.

[17:55]  Eshi Otawara is Online

[17:55]  Andromeda Mesmer: Well the artists in SL can run their own businesses, like artists in RL.

[17:55]  Boston Hutchinson: :)

[17:55]  You: SL is an interesting case - cities aren't springing up here.

[17:56]  Boston Hutchinson: And there are a lot more artists than there used to be

[17:56]  You: And many companeis that bought into SL, have pulled back a little, not knowing how to make money here yet.

[17:56]  Bruce Flyer: here

[17:56]  AndrewMD Oh: :)

[17:56]  Bruce Flyer: there are no cities because there is no need for water systems

[17:57]  You: I misspelled metropolitan, Boston, but you just coined a new Califronia word.

[17:57]  Boston Hutchinson: We have perfectly good water systems without a city. Just dig a hole in the ground. :)

[17:57]  You: :)

[17:57]  AndrewMD Oh: place doesn´t make space

[17:58]  AndrewMD Oh: cities are spaces and not just places

[17:58]  You: But perhaps we can cultivate new processes in SL that replace the massive changes due to urbanzition ahead

[17:58]  AndrewMD Oh: in SL we see many places but they are not spaces

[17:58]  Breen Mathy is Offline

[17:58]  Andromeda Mesmer: However sometimes they just have very strong associations.

[17:58]  Andromeda Mesmer: Even if there are no real cities, still there are groupings, and successful businesses attract other businesses, and the rent goes up. Everybody could live in isolation, but they don't.

[17:58]  Andromeda Mesmer: Via TP links.

[17:59]  Boston Hutchinson: I wish we could all teleport to work in RL!

[17:59]  AndrewMD Oh: exactly, you create a city by transforming the place into space

[17:59]  Bruce Flyer: do people with houses in SL usually "park" their avatars there every night?

[17:59]  You: If space refers to meanings associated with place, that's true Andrew, whereas placee is phsycial.

[17:59]  AndrewMD Oh: in the case of SL there are communities transforming place into space or micro cities

[17:59]  Patrio Graysmark is Online

[18:00]  You: Let's contiue to chat, as we close the class . . . I need to move outside from the cafe I'm in

[18:00]  Bruce Flyer: but we have no identity here based upon location do we?

[18:00]  Perry Proudhon is Online

[18:00]  AndrewMD Oh: again you are talking about a place

[18:00]  Boston Hutchinson: Interesting point, Bruce

[18:00]  You: For those who need to go, thank you for coming, and see you next week.

[18:00]  AndrewMD Oh: location means place

[18:01]  AndrewMD Oh: the space creation is linked to identity

[18:01]  You: But in some ways we do, Bruce - I think most of us have an identity associated with avirtual isalnd - n'est-ce pas?

[18:01]  Claryssa Schmidt: thanks :)

[18:01]  Bruce Flyer: thank you Aphilo

[18:01]  Boston Hutchinson: Thanks for class, Aphilo.

[18:01]  AndrewMD Oh: yes, many thanks, I might leave as well

[18:01]  You: :)

[18:01]  AndrewMD Oh: have a good night, here in Europe is almost 2:00 am

[18:01]  Mec Benelli: Thanks

[18:02]  You have offered friendship to Mec Benelli

[18:02]  You have offered friendship to AndrewMD Oh

[18:02]  AndrewMD Oh is Online

[18:02]  Mec Benelli is Online

[18:02]  Mec Benelli: It is 4.00 am

[18:02]  AndrewMD Oh: :-)

[18:02]  AndrewMD Oh: see you next week

[18:02]  You: early :)

[18:02]  AndrewMD Oh: Good by all

[18:02]  Boston Hutchinson: Good bye

[18:03]  AndrewMD Oh is Offline

[18:03]  Bruce Flyer: i would like to have an association with Harvard in RL but the fact that my avatar comes here frequently does not really cause that to happen -- at least not yet

[18:03]  You: Good nght

[18:03]  Bruce Flyer: maybe someday we will explore avatar psychology

[18:04]  Mariamo Babii is Offline

[18:04]  Boston Hutchinson: I've learned that Ray Kurzweil has an avatar, and intends to make her autonomous

[18:04]  You: True

[18:04]  Boston Hutchinson: yes

[18:04]  Bruce Flyer: Ramona?

[18:04]  Andromeda Mesmer: That is very interesting,Boston.

[18:04]  Boston Hutchinson: but as far as i know, she's not in SL

[18:05]  You: A good starting place is Sherry Turkle's book "Life on the Screen"

[18:05]  Boston Hutchinson: He has full motor control, including facial expressions and voice

[18:05]  Bruce Flyer: if she visits an island the required compulation might crash the island

[18:05]  You: As well, as Stanford's Bailenson's and Nick Yee's work

[18:05]  Boston Hutchinson: via his ownmotions

[18:05]  Boston Hutchinson: it takes a lot of computers and software

[18:06]  Bruce Flyer: it would be nice to build a collorative brain for an autonomous avatar

[18:06]  You: And Mitch Kapor, one of the first investors in SL is banking on a camera to facilitate aspects of avatar agency.

[18:06]  Boston Hutchinson: in a few years, we'll all have that much computing power

[18:07]  Boston Hutchinson: yes, and mitch and ray have a bet on the Turing Test

[18:07]  Andromeda Mesmer: Well, SL is getting more powerful so you never know. I discussed inventory with people last night, since I have an inventory of 39 K now -- apparently an inventory of 10 K would have crashed avatars in the early days, but now some have 60 K, 100 K ...

[18:07]  Bruce Flyer: wow

[18:07]  You: I agree, Boston, but you've outlined some limitations to synthesizing text, say,

[18:08]  You: from SL to form an avatar brain

[18:08]  You: Although I think this is a fruitful line of research.

[18:08]  Bruce Flyer: i guess i have a light pixelprint

[18:08]  Boston Hutchinson: The avatar controls would run on your own computer, just as they do now

[18:09]  Boston Hutchinson: but, of course, they aren't very realisitic yet and that will take more processing at Linden

[18:09]  You: Will inventory be a determining factor in questions of avatar agency, I wonder.

[18:09]  Bruce Flyer: inventory of cognitive objects -- Minsky's Society of Mind perhaps

[18:10]  Boston Hutchinson: the avatar brain would be on the avatar's computer, not on SL's

[18:10]  Boston Hutchinson: the wager between Kurzweil and Kapor is for 2029

[18:10]  Bruce Flyer: gives new meaning to thin client

[18:10]  Diego Ibanez is Online

[18:10]  Daisyblue Hefferman is Offline

[18:11]  Bruce Flyer: fat client = smart autonous avatar?

[18:11]  You: A co-mingling of hard drive and neural processes, with different intermediary technologies like a keyboard - perhaps brainfingers - http://brainfingers.com, for example.

[18:12]  Boston Hutchinson: I think the inventory issue has more to do with the SL business model than with technology

[18:13]  Boston Hutchinson: no keyboard

[18:13]  You: True, as well as possible outcomes . . .

[18:13]  Boston Hutchinson: Kurzweil predicts that the interface between you and the virtual world will be by nanobots at the synases inthe brain

[18:13]  Andromeda Mesmer: Well, a German IT guy told me, when I was a fresh newbie, that I could have as much of anything as I wanted, and that ANYTHING ELSE WOULD NOT MAKE SENSE. Since I was used to limits in memory, from the old days, I was kind of shell-shocked for 3 days -- then started grabbing every script, gesture, and so forth in sight.

[18:13]  SamBivalent Spork is Offline

[18:13]  Bruce Flyer: and i thought table PC was advanced

[18:14]  You: Could be, but http://brainfingers.com already offers an interface between hands-less computer use, including the production of words.

[18:14]  Andromeda Mesmer: One of the biggest problems in SL for people is how to manage their inventory, not the size -- and I have learned how to manage mine -- it is pretty well organized.

[18:15]  Boston Hutchinson: There's clearly a confluence of technology, art and business that makes the future very hard to predict.

[18:15]  Andromeda Mesmer: "very hard" is an understatement :)

[18:15]  Boston Hutchinson: I can't manage my inventory, and it's almost nothing!

[18:15]  You: And novel, accidental and unforseen convergences have been signficant in the development of the Internet.

[18:16]  You: very

[18:17]  Boston Hutchinson: Stross' vision in Accelerando is vary similar to Kurzweil's but with a lot of colorful additions to make for good fiction.

[18:18]  Boston Hutchinson: I'm not sure that the convergences were unforseen by everybody.

[18:18]  Bruce Flyer: i wish my professional association would meet here. it costs a bundle to go somewhere to present a paper for the vitae

[18:18]  Boston Hutchinson: There were people who made some predictions that were close, including Kurzweil.

[18:19]  You: Perhaps, but TCP / IP and Request for Comments as a key process were a work in progress, so to speak.

[18:19]  Boston Hutchinson: Give ita few years,Bruce.

[18:19]  Bruce Flyer: :-)

[18:19]  You: And while Marshall McLuhan foresaw a global communciation network in the 60s, Berners-Lee couldn't have foreseen or written http and html

[18:20]  You: with TCP / IP

[18:20]  Bruce Flyer: brb

[18:20]  Boston Hutchinson: Yes, but people were thinking about what the interface would look like long before we had the hardware to run it on

[18:20]  You: I'm need to take off . . .

[18:21]  Boston Hutchinson: and there were network protocols in the 60's. some of the best, in fact.

[18:21]  You: True - ARPANET first transmitted digital code in 1969, I think.

[18:22]  You: See you next week.

[18:22]  You: Very nice to chat.

[18:22]  Boston Hutchinson: The Lanning protocol, was earlier, i think, and may be the theoretically optimal arbitration scheme

[18:22]  You: :)

[18:22]  Andromeda Mesmer: I just remembered a funny point raised about predictions -- I think it was Robert Heinlein who said that many people predicted a manned landing on the moon, but nobody predicted that it would be seen on live TV.

[18:22]  Boston Hutchinson: See you. Thanks!

[18:23]  Andromeda Mesmer: Well, I should be off too.

[18:23]  Spider Mycron is Offline

[18:23]  Boston Hutchinson: Interesting point,ANdromeda

[18:23]  Andromeda Mesmer: Well the social aspects of change are not easily predicted - like the change in courtship habits, when the car appeared.

[18:24]  Boston Hutchinson: Back to RL. I haven't gotten my wife and kids to move to SL yet, but I'm working on it.

[18:24]  Boston Hutchinson: :}

[18:24]  You: We haven't examined TV as information technology in depth yest, Andromeda, although it may have been significant in changing the way the Pentagon carries out war - in that people didn't want to see body bags, after Viet Na, and the Pentagon has consequently been very careful about creating American casualities.

[18:24]  Bruce Flyer: maybe we have something in common that could be the basis for our organizing a professional association here and having annual conferences

[18:24]  Andromeda Mesmer: It can be mind-boggling -- a nurse from Scotland was telling me -- inToronto -- that her cat was watching me on the screen, and really fascinated by the movements :)

[18:25]  Bruce Flyer: LOL

[18:25]  You: I'm posting the transcript.

[18:25]  You: See you next week.

[18:25]  Andromeda Mesmer: See you Aphilo --

 

 

 

Comments (0)

You don't have permission to comment on this page.