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Feb 20 2008 Soc and Info Tech class transcript

Page history last edited by PBworks 15 years, 9 months ago

Society and Information Technology in Second Life

Wednesdays, January 9 - July 30, 2008, 4-6, SLT/PT, 7-9 pm ET

on Berkman island in Second Life - http://slurl.com/secondlife/Berkman/114/70/25

Course homepage - http://socinfotech.pbwiki.com

 

Instructor: Scott MacLeod (not on Harvard's faculty) = Aphilo Aarde (in Second Life)

http://scottmacleod.com/papers.htm

 

 

 

Feb 20 2008 Soc and Info Tech class transcript

 

 

[15:59]  You: There's also a class starting here now, to which you are welcome to attend

[15:59]  You: on society and information technology, about how the information technology revolution has taken shape

[15:59]  You: http://socinfotech.pbwiki.com

[16:00]  Boston Hutchinson is Online

[16:00]  Annette Paster is Online

[16:00]  You: Are more people coming to your building class?

[16:01]  You: in the sandbox?

[16:01]  Murdoc Falworth: theyll be here

[16:01]  You: Hi Boston ...

[16:01]  Murdoc Falworth: no

[16:02]  You: HI Andromeda!

[16:02]  You: How are you?

[16:02]  Boston Hutchinson: Hi Andromeda

[16:03]  You: np

[16:03]  You: How are you both?

[16:03]  Andromeda Mesmer: Hi Boston -- Charlie Stross was signing books in Boston yesterday.

[16:03]  Boston Hutchinson: I'm fine, thanks. How are you?

[16:03]  You: Great

[16:03]  You: Were you able to see him?

[16:03]  Andromeda Mesmer: I 'm fine -- made some eyeglasses yesterday.

[16:03]  Annette Paster is Offline

[16:04]  You: Interesting.

[16:04]  Andromeda Mesmer: I'm in Toronto -- so no :( -- I saw him at a SF Worldcon in Toronto.

[16:04]  You: Cool.

[16:04]  Annette Paster is Online

[16:05]  Boston Hutchinson: Eyegalsses? For me?

[16:05]  Andromeda Mesmer: Gold framed, silver framed, and black framed.

[16:05]  Sevrin Falworth: oh my beh jebus

[16:05]  You: Sound nice - I can only see them a little on you, if you're wearing them.

[16:05]  Andromeda Mesmer: They may not fit you -- we can see during the break.

[16:06]  Boston Hutchinson: COO

[16:06]  Andromeda Mesmer: Can be expanded though.

[16:06]  Boston Hutchinson: sorry.

[16:06]  Andromeda Mesmer: Stretched, I mean.

[16:06]  Boston Hutchinson: Cool

[16:06]  Boston Hutchinson: I may end up looking like RL

[16:06]  Annette Paster is Offline

[16:06]  Murdoc Falworth: Boo!

[16:07]  Sevrin Falworth: wow.... im not ur emo guardian anymore...

[16:07]  Boston Hutchinson: Though that would require more changes.

[16:07]  You: Before we begin talking about browser wars,

[16:08]  You: and hearing Andromeda around 8:30, I'm curious where you think

[16:08]  You: new innovation will occur in the short term.

[16:08]  Andromeda Mesmer: Weird outsourcing too -- I have read about host mothers for US women, hired in India

[16:08]  You: that is potentially as transformative as, for example, the one laptop per child,

[16:09]  You: which MIT's Negorponte wanted to produce 150 million in 2008, and produced 490,000 in 2008 instead

[16:09]  Andromeda Mesmer: I wish somebody could spell.

[16:10]  You: not an insignificant number, of which less than 1/3 went to folks who gave in the donor program.

[16:10]  Diego Ibanez is Offline

[16:11]  You: Yes, they will get bored . . .

[16:11]  Andromeda Mesmer: Snicker

[16:11]  Boston Hutchinson: :)

[16:11]  You: Innovation with browsers was partly precipitated by competition - open source with Microsoft . . .

[16:12]  You: and it was this that led to

[16:12]  You: the wide spread adoption of the Internet . . .

[16:12]  You: with grapically user - friendly

[16:12]  You: browsers

[16:12]  Murdoc Falworth: wow you guys are nerds

[16:12]  You: the Internet wouldn't have spread world wide around 1995.

[16:13]  You: So Netscape and Microsoft entered into a commercial war.

[16:13]  Murdoc Falworth: i mean who gets on sl to learn

[16:13]  You: And in 1998, Netscape released source code for navigator.

[16:13]  Sevrin Falworth: i dun

[16:13]  You: And Microsoft did enough that Netscape couldn't survive commercially.

[16:13]  Brian Whiteberry is Online

[16:14]  You: America Online bought Netscape . . . and that is the line of development that led to everybody being on the Internet

[16:14]  You: Why this battle over browsers?

[16:15]  You: Because they are a user-friendly way to surf the Internet.

[16:15]  Annette Paster is Online

[16:15]  You: Tim Berners-Lee devised the browser-editor, which people used only passively, for the browser.

[16:16]  You: The rate of expansion outside a knowledgable community was due to this browser war - and was a key element behind the Internet.

[16:16]  You: So the Internet developed from synergy

[16:16]  You: From

[16:16]  You: 1 Scientific culture

[16:16]  You: 2 Military

[16:16]  You: and 3 Grass roots - from and for the people

[16:16]  You: About the military -

[16:17]  You: There weren't any real military applications for software - and it was nevertheless important for the military

[16:18]  You: ...In the context of the Cold War, this research had an UNLIMITED level of funding.

[16:18]  You: The military was decisive in terms of context

[16:18]  You: but not in terms of software itself - there were no weapon systems or anything related to it, that could knock down the Soviets.

[16:19]  You: By pure LUCK, the Defense Department supported the

[16:19]  You: development of the Internet, in terms of a research agency - DARPA

[16:20]  You: Usually, any program funded by the military, has narrow applications, and specific goals.

[16:20]  You: In this particular case, academics were working in Defense, and understood that freedom for academics was essential.

[16:20]  You: they wanted something that was so good taht missles wouldn't matter.

[16:21]  Boston Hutchinson: THe WW II generation of scientists and engineers grew up with the idea that the military was good, and the military believed the scientific community supported them. They were all on the same team in the early cold war days.

[16:21]  You: In the case of the US military environment, they had full support,

[16:21]  You: but this was only one of 3 elements., but a fundamental one.

[16:22]  Boston Hutchinson: The separation of research from the military really came about gradually as a result of anti-Vietnam sentiment.

[16:22]  You: Yes, Boston, some of the scientists in the 60s and 70s were sympathetic to the military, and others were not, at MIT, and all over the country.

[16:23]  You: True and military funding for chip development in Silicon Valley in the 50s, was part of a fabric of military funded scientific research, but by chance, the parameters in the development of the Internet were uniquely different.

[16:23]  Brian Whiteberry is Offline

[16:24]  Boston Hutchinson: Mostly they were sympathetic until the 70s. Even then, the older generation was sympathetic, but the political conflicts made the close relationship between academia andthe military inconvenient. (There were protesters blocking the entrances to the labs.)

[16:24]  You: ...from previous funding experience, partly due to knowledge generation and production informing to IT, leading to synergies.

[16:25]  You: Yes, but Silicon Valley and the culture taht emerged organically there in the 1950s, does mark

[16:25]  You: a divergence from previous ways of doing things. Viet Nam was one additional factor that changed this more

[16:25]  You: significantly.

[16:26]  You: 2 - In terms of the source of design and development of the Internet

[16:26]  Eshi Otawara is Offline

[16:26]  Bruce Flyer is Online

[16:26]  You: business didn't play a signficant role until the 1990s.

[16:27]  You: Hello Flux - this is a class on the Information Technology Revolution, which you're welcome to participate in

[16:27]  You: http://socinfotech.pbwiki.com

[16:27]  You: Hello Bruce!

[16:27]  Boston Hutchinson: Hi Bruce

[16:27]  Bruce Flyer: hi everyond

[16:27]  You: And in terms of prevailing ideology, Business was completely out of the process

[16:27]  You: Business couldn't have created this.

[16:28]  You: Public money was the cause.

[16:28]  You: Al Gore didn't invent the Internet, as he once suggested, but he was very imporant to it, in making moneies available.

[16:28]  You: What he did was important.

[16:29]  You: So Public money, in terms of resaerch money from the military and academia, as well as good will

[16:29]  You: -the military made this money available with no strings attached were key to IT's development.

[16:30]  You: So the most important technology of our time didn't come from business.

[16:30]  You: 3. Becasue the Internet developed in the above way - it isn't telephone lines or computers.

[16:30]  You: What is the Internet?

[16:30]  You: In temrs of "architecture"

[16:31]  You: it's "software"

[16:31]  You: which are immaterial protocols

[16:31]  You: protocols of information.

[16:31]  You: This architecture is organized in such a way taht

[16:32]  You: it was open on 2 levels.

[16:32]  You: 1. in terms of TCP/IP, the protocols for which were written from 1973-78, and were open to EVERYONE.

[16:33]  You: 2. the notion of distributed computing means that the power of processing is distributed

[16:33]  You: throughout the entire network

[16:33]  You: The Internet is based ona star system strucutre.

[16:33]  You: So the Internet is based on protocols.

[16:33]  You: It's an open architecture and based on distributed computing.

[16:34]  You: The entire system can dispatch and reroute throughout the entire system.

[16:34]  You: Under the Internet, messages, which are censored, are interpreted as blocked and rerouted.

[16:34]  You: It's communication that goes around, comes around.

[16:35]  You: ... and it's based on openness.

[16:35]  You: Hi Bogart - this is a class on Society and Information Technology - aobut the information technology revolution - at large participation is welcome - http://socinfotech.pwiki.com

[16:36]  You: So the Medium was invented.

[16:36]  Bruce Flyer: Bogart is with me :-)

[16:36]  You: And it used :) TELEPHONE LINES to allow computers outside ARPANET to communicate

[16:37]  You: North Carolina students developed the software and distributed it for free at a conference in 1978 - and it was called USENET

[16:37]  You: So by 1978, personal software already existed - another revolutionary aspect of Information Technology

[16:38]  You: North Carolina students created something

[16:38]  You: that shaped the basis of the world wide networking

[16:39]  You: Most software since piggy backs on the generosity of this process, as they gave it away for free.

[16:39]  You: They created a network.

[16:39]  You: USENET became a BBS - Bulletin Board System

[16:39]  You: And in 1978-79, USENET NEWS

[16:39]  You: became widespread

[16:39]  Luna Bliss is Offline

[16:39]  You: It was a cheap, dialup system like today

[16:40]  You: The disadvantage was that it had little transmission capacity, and it wasn't connected to ARPANET

[16:40]  You: What about domains?

[16:41]  You: One person asked at the time if someone should take care of the software which became the basis for individual web sites.

[16:41]  You: Noe was interested.

[16:41]  Krysss Galatea is Online

[16:41]  You: So a USC Professor said he would - Jon Postel.

[16:41]  You: So he single-handedly organized the assignment of names on the Internet

[16:42]  You: He died in 1998, and before dying he designed a democratic authority to manage the Internet

[16:42]  You: He designed a governance agency - ICANN

[16:42]  You: which was recognized as the authroity

[16:42]  You: The naming authority was transferred to this body.

[16:43]  Claryssa Schmidt is Online

[16:43]  You: Europe at the time - late 1990s -

[16:43]  You: was less sure that ICANN was separate from the US government

[16:43]  You: But it was in principle.

[16:44]  You: And it elected representatives from a global network of representatives

[16:44]  You: Anyone can be a member.

[16:44]  You: Hello Claryssa!

[16:44]  Claryssa Schmidt: hi :)

[16:44]  Boston Hutchinson: Hi Claryssa

[16:44]  You: And from early on, it quicly had 140,000 members.

[16:44]  You: 35,000 voted from all over the planet

[16:44]  You: ICANN also had 5 key members, one from each continent.

[16:45]  You: And it has the ability to assign web addresses

[16:45]  You: The system had two initial critiques

[16:45]  You: 1. It was democratic but not democratic

[16:46]  You: There were lobbies, and money played a key role, and in the politics of name recognition, all candidates weren't equal.

[16:46]  You: All of this was true.

[16:46]  You: But most people didn't care.

[16:47]  You: The Internet has been by and large self - regulating.

[16:47]  You: although formerly, the Intenret was run by Defense, and then by commerce.

[16:47]  Boston Hutchinson: In the early days, you could get almost any domain name you wanted, and it was considered in very bad taste to grab a name you didn't really need to use.

[16:47]  You: In fact, it has been self-governed in a strange way.

[16:48]  You: What is self-governance.

[16:48]  You: But many people did try to anticipate the value of names, and bought many, I think.

[16:48]  You: And some people made some money on these. Now there's an expansion into suffixes - .name, .info, etc.

[16:49]  You: What is self governance vis-a-vis the Internet?

[16:49]  Andromeda Mesmer: I think that there is a name with "white house" that was grabbed by a porn site.

[16:49]  You: It's a set of software to make sure protocols are common and the address system is common.

[16:49]  Boston Hutchinson: I'm not sure when that started exactly. It cost $35/year, if I remember correctly, so there was some disincentive to sitting on a lot of names.

[16:49]  You: After that, the network does it by itself.

[16:49]  Bruce Flyer: complex adaptive systems self-govern themselves within ranges of behavior

[16:50]  Bruce Flyer: it is control of a sort but without centralization

[16:50]  You: I see . . yes, I had heard that too, Andromeda. :)

[16:50]  Bruce Flyer: mutual partisan adjustment?

[16:50]  You: These developed on the basis of the Network Working Group in the late 1970s.

[16:51]  You: RFC - Request for Comments - was another key democratic process that significantly informed the development of TP-IP - Transmission Control Protocol / Information Protocol

[16:52]  You: in the 1970s.

[16:52]  You: Here someone would send out a request for feedback on a developing protocol.

[16:52]  You: A disagreement would lead to an agreement, and to a protocol.

[16:53]  You: This was organized by Steve Crocker in part

[16:53]  You: Vint Cerf and Bob Kahn

[16:53]  Bruce Flyer: but protocols are not about values. in the absence of values is it really "governance?"

[16:54]  You: in the 1970s organized 1) the Internet Enginneering Task force, and the 2) Internet

[16:54]  You: based on open committees

[16:54]  You: Protocols are ways of structuring information

[16:55]  You: Jon Postel did become a moral force of the internet early on, but much of these developments emerged in teh 1970s

[16:55]  You: by counterculturally inclined computer science students working on this very open system

[16:56]  You: in the SF BAy Area so that informed aspects of the values

[16:56]  You: taht inform the Internet - Castells wrote part of Himanen's "The Hacker Ethos," as did Linus Torvalds

[16:57]  Arawn Spitteler is Online

[16:58]  You: Following the German socioMax Weber's "The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism" where he articulates a religious ethic with a system of busines

[16:58]  Krysss Galatea is Offline

[16:58]  You: Himanen et al suggest that the ethic that gave rise to the Internet includes creativity, joy, hard work and playfulness

[16:59]  You: that these processes informed hackers motivations to create good and free software

[16:59]  You: Re: ICANN - the name governing body - and its early emergence - technical

[17:00]  You: agencies and committees were still much controlled by Americans

[17:00]  You: The other main criticism of ICANN was that it was subject to crazy people.

[17:00]  Gwyneth Llewelyn is Online

[17:00]  You: The European representative in 2000 was a hacker from the German Xaos club.

[17:01]  You: ICANN, this critics say, is not a democratically representated body

[17:01]  Krysss Galatea is Online

[17:01]  You: Instead it's a non-traditional form of governement rooted in the chaos of Internet tradition.

[17:02]  You: So, let's come back in 10 minutes . . .

 

 

[17:12]  Boston Hutchinson: Hi Aphilo

[17:12]  You: let's begin again

[17:12]  You: The History of the Internet

[17:13]  You: could have been completely different

[17:13]  You: e.g. it could have been shaped by top down processes

[17:13]  You: and not be based on a distributed computing system, where so much has been FREE

[17:14]  You: And history is made by people with values, ideas, preferences.

[17:14]  You: What ultimately the Internet is depends on ideas and values

[17:15]  You: of different groups who contributed to teh Internet

[17:15]  Boston Hutchinson: Like the net neutrality issue?

[17:16]  You: their culture - which includes a set of values and beliefs that influence behavior

[17:16]  You: Yes, Boston

[17:16]  You: I think that the idea of network neutrality partly emerges from freedom of speech questions, and an

[17:16]  You: intent to make it fairly accessible to all.

[17:17]  Boston Hutchinson: I think a lot of the values are really based on engineering issues.

[17:17]  You: for example?

[17:17]  Geda Hax is Online

[17:17]  You: And how to values and ideas inform what engineers make?

[17:18]  Boston Hutchinson: If net neutrality is not preserved, for example, the potential development of the net willbe restricted to the technologies that support the dominant monopolies and commercial interests that gain control.

[17:18]  You: True - and in countries around the world, it isn't

[17:19]  Boston Hutchinson: This is not really a philosophical issue. It's really a technical one. The vision that engineers have for the net willnot be realized if the economic forces get control

[17:19]  You: so the U.S. becomes both an example to other countries, as well as an experiment, as well as a process of legal development

[17:20]  You: Yes, Boston, but as we've been examining over the past weeks and months, much of this history has been made by hackers . . .

[17:21]  You: so current engineers and computer scientists build on the exisitng technical systems, informed by this paradigm shift we've been examining.

[17:21]  Boston Hutchinson: I'm not sure I'd characterize CERN researchers and MIT and Stanford scientists as hackers.

[17:21]  Boston Hutchinson: Though what they did may have been done in their spare time.

[17:22]  You: Berners-Lee was working on his own time to produce single-handedy the WWW - it was an act of creativity without precedent.

[17:22]  Boston Hutchinson: I think the hackers and other engineers have a vision or collection of visions, which they are trying to realize.

[17:23]  Boston Hutchinson: Absolutely, it's a creative vision.

[17:23]  You: While I agree, there are numerous examples of key aspects of this history which are informed by a kind of hacking - a poor choice of name, but which perhaps aptly describes the process - Jon Postel

[17:23]  You: Fidonet

[17:23]  You: USENETTCP/IP

[17:23]  You: And the cultures behind the shaping of the Internet are significant, as you point out.

[17:24]  Boston Hutchinson: They weren't serving their commercial employers, so it's hacking. :)

[17:24]  You: Yes, and if one goes with Himanen's interpretation - creativity, hard work, playfulness and joy - they were hacking

[17:25]  Boston Hutchinson: Of course, many of the employers, at least in the universities and DOD research labs encouraged this exploration.

[17:25]  You: or 'joying' or 'playing with digital code'

[17:25]  You: Yes - xerox parc was very creative, for example.

[17:25]  Boston Hutchinson: Hacking often refers to breaking into something, but these people were creating something new.

[17:26]  You: So there are 4 cultures that make up the shaping of the internet . . .

[17:26]  You: Himanen and Castells distinguish, perhaps academically, between hacking and cracking -

[17:26]  You: hacking being the above, and cracking breaking the law, usually kids testing the system.

[17:27]  You: But it's a fuzzy distinction, - nevertheless, a lot of something like hacking shaped teh Internet, in a very far-reaching way.

[17:27]  You: The 4 cultures of the Internet include

[17:27]  You: 1) a techno-meritocratic culture

[17:27]  Boston Hutchinson: That makes sense. I'm not sure when and in what context the =term hacking originated, but I'd be surprised if these people applied it to themselves at the time. Perhaps now they would.

[17:28]  You: where one of the chief values is GOOD technology

[17:28]  You: :)

[17:28]  You: Good software here was the supreme value

[17:28]  Diego Ibanez is Offline

[17:29]  You: The model was similar to an academic one, where the culture in academic is supposed to be based on excellence.

[17:29]  You: So the technomeritrocratic culture valed excellence, as well as the joy of discovering. There

[17:29]  You: was less emphasis on making money, although that has changed some.

[17:30]  You: So excellence and meritocracy informed the technomeritocrativ cultre.

[17:30]  You: To develop good technology was also absolutedly essentil.

[17:31]  You: Cerf, and Kahn, Postel, and Crocker, etc. used Defense Department money, because they wanted to make good software available to everyone.

[17:31]  You: and this above culture gave rise to Hacker culture, about which we've spoken.

[17:31]  You: But let me stop here, and

[17:32]  You: Andromeda, would you be willing to share with us a little about Steve Mann's innovations, and others?

[17:33]  You: Andromeda?

[17:33]  Andromeda Mesmer: I'm thinking ...

[17:33]  Andromeda Mesmer: Just a moment.

[17:33]  You: Ok.

[17:34]  You: Would you like to talk about Mann and Stross?

[17:34]  Andromeda Mesmer: I'll start with Stross -- seem to have misplaced my notes. About Stross, I can talk indefnitely.

[17:34]  You: ok

[17:34]  Andromeda Mesmer: Some important points that Stross has discussed in essays -

[17:35]  Andromeda Mesmer: One is that we will have less and less privacy. That this process is irreversible.

[17:35]  You: If you can focus on their contributions to computing and the internet, in particular, that would be great.

[17:35]  You: And let's open the way for questions a little after 8:45

[17:35]  You: Come stand up if you like.

[17:35]  Andromeda Mesmer: Privacy loss due to more powerful computers, combined with video cameras.

[17:36]  You: The survelliance society may be a product of IT

[17:36]  Boston Hutchinson: Yes, cameras everywhere. Privacy will be implemented in software, and won't always work.

[17:37]  You: This government certainly hasn't been respecting its laws or its citizens.

[17:37]  Andromeda Mesmer: Stross also says, and his readers agree, that younger people have completely different attitudes -- they don't seem to place a great value on privacy.

[17:37]  You: True

[17:38]  Andromeda Mesmer: Some of the things that younger people share with their peers are rather startling -- and what they share with the public at large. This has recently been in the news because the prospective employers of university students do searches, look at all this, accounts of getting totally smashed at some parties ...

[17:39]  You: Yes

[17:39]  Andromeda Mesmer: The observers -- readers who comment on Charlie Stross' web site agree, there is a definite sea change in attitudes.

[17:39]  Diego Ibanez is Online

[17:39]  You: And employers are looking at facebook with an eye to hiring . . . and young people are very open.

[17:39]  You: How does this work for Stross?

[17:40]  Andromeda Mesmer: I don't think Stross likes the loss of privacy personally, but he does see it as inevitable.

[17:41]  Andromeda Mesmer: There is an associated question though -- the young members of the public share info about themselves, governments and big corporations conduct surveillance -- but can the people also look up? Examine governments?

[17:41]  Andromeda Mesmer: Will this even be allowed?

[17:41]  Boston Hutchinson: Interesting question

[17:41]  Andromeda Mesmer: Steve Mann thinks that yes, this is possible.

[17:42]  Claryssa Schmidt is Offline

[17:42]  You: Good question - the Berkman Center has particularly tried to open up possibilities for governmental transparency - see Media Berkman.

[17:42]  Andromeda Mesmer: In rushing through the end of the presentation last time, I mentioned a word, SOUSVEILLANCE that Steve Mann coined.

[17:43]  Andromeda Mesmer: Sous -- the French for UNDER -- Sur -- over, on ...

[17:43]  Claryssa Schmidt is Online

[17:44]  Andromeda Mesmer: There are signs of this now. Some bloggers are excellent citizen reporters, citizen comentators, and the quality of their work can be far superior to that of even big newspapers in some circumstances.

[17:44]  You: :)

[17:45]  Andromeda Mesmer: The big newspapers have cut down on foreign bureaus, for example -- but there are people in those areas who can report on local news.

[17:45]  You: Global Voices - in conjunction with the Bekrman Center - is a good example of engaging the blogosphere - http://www.globalvoicesonline.org/

[17:46]  Andromeda Mesmer: And a domestic example in the US - when there were California wildfires last year -- the local citizens did a much better job of reporting than the officials -- who I suppose were stretched to the maximum and were unable to know what was going on -- consequently sometimes gave bad information.

[17:46]  Andromeda Mesmer: One problem that will have to be sorted out here is -- how to get good information. The only way I know is trial and error. Moreover, good web sites will link to other good web sites.

[17:47]  Andromeda Mesmer: For example -- Prof. Juan Cole at the University of Michigan teaches Middle Eastern history & politics.

[17:47]  You: and caveat emptor - buyer beware - and name familiarity that leads to trust in credibility.

[17:47]  Andromeda Mesmer: He has an excellent web site, about Middle Eastern news -- he speaks and writes Arabic -

[17:48]  Andromeda Mesmer: He links to good sites. If you go to those sites, well -- more links there -

[17:48]  You: Yes, societal roles, too, help support credibility.

[17:49]  Andromeda Mesmer: Well, as I started reading Prof. Cole regularly -- he posts almost on a daily basis -- I also started reading some of the links. Some started criticizing Prof. Cole -- and of course -- feedback from Cole's readers provides a different POV.

[17:50]  Andromeda Mesmer: If the readers disagree with Cole, they don't hesitate to say so -- and say why -- so it helped me greatly in learning.

[17:50]  You: ...with dialogue

[17:50]  You: and the web facilitates that

[17:50]  Diego Ibanez is Offline

[17:50]  Boston Hutchinson: If there are video cameras everywhere, such that there is a real-time Google Earth with street-level view stitched together by software, you can be anywhere, anytime, as if you were really there. You can just go to the time and place of a controversy and decide for yourself what happened.

[17:51]  Andromeda Mesmer: I have also found that some web sites are excellent -- but the readers comments are idiotic -- high noise to info ratio -- so I learned to avoid reading those commentaries completely. Just read the writing of the professor.

[17:52]  You: Prof. Nesson - at the Harvard Law School and the Berkman center - often engages the role of video cameras as evidence in the Rodney King trail

[17:52]  Andromeda Mesmer: On the other hand, even if there is a considerable amount of junk -- still it might be worthwhile digging in, because there is an occasional commentator who has something eveyr interesting to say.

[17:52]  Andromeda Mesmer: yes -- Rodney King was probably the start.

[17:53]  You: Thank you, Andromeda!

[17:53]  Boston Hutchinson: If the data is there, the role of the media is to tell you whereto look, and help you interpret, rather than to debate the facts.

[17:53]  You: Let's have time for questions in these last few minutes.

[17:53]  Andromeda Mesmer: I have a question about Google Earth -- is there any delay, and if so, by how much?

[17:53]  Boston Hutchinson: Years, I think

[17:54]  You: We the readers in this many to many technology of the Internet become

[17:54]  Boston Hutchinson: It's old satelite photos.

[17:54]  Boston Hutchinson: Now supplemented by street level photography, but they only shoot everything once.

[17:54]  You: much more significant in interpreting events ourselves, as well as getting finding the information we want.

[17:55]  Andromeda Mesmer: In Stross's 2nd last book -- the policewoman uses her special eyeglasses to navigate -- but worries whether the info is up to date.

[17:55]  Andromeda Mesmer: Street maps and buildings.

[17:55]  Boston Hutchinson: I think there will be a time when the web contains real time video everywhere--networked nanocameras

[17:55]  Andromeda Mesmer: Stross would agree.

[17:56]  Boston Hutchinson: If you could then search in space and time, sousveillance would be very real.

[17:56]  You: I've been traveling recently on the north coast of california, and am amazed, given Silicon Valley's proximity, how unwired it is.

[17:57]  Andromeda Mesmer: Can sousveillance be stopped by governments? Or -- maybe so much information that it will be difficult to sift and get what you want?

[17:57]  You: On the ground, few people seem to be seeking infomration from handhelds. Many towns

[17:57]  You: have one or a few public wi fi spots, and you see some laptops in them, but they aren't ubiquitous.

[17:58]  You: Healdsburg, where I am now, has a downtown area that is wired by the city.

[17:58]  Boston Hutchinson: and 50 years from now? self-organizing nanobot mesh networks everywhere? You can drop them from the air by the billions.

[17:58]  You: But I wonder if people won't be as touched by surveillance issues as some worry, from a practical, slow adoption point of view.

[17:59]  You: Perhaps - someone has to be at the other end surveilling . . .

[17:59]  Boston Hutchinson: The kids, as you've both been pointing out, seem to take it for granted.

[17:59]  You: and interpreting, a more difficult aspect to these new technologies

[18:00]  You: Yes, kids have access to web sites and virtual worlds from age 3, but I've seen a lot of kids playing on the streets on bicycles as well.

[18:00]  You: I don't see how we can predict how IT will be adopted.

[18:00]  Boston Hutchinson: I hope we aren't going to give up RL!

[18:00]  You: ...50 years from now.

[18:01]  Andromeda Mesmer: In N. Calfornia you mean?

[18:01]  You: Yes, but I'm familiar with the east coast as well.

[18:01]  Andromeda Mesmer: I don't think I will give up on RL.

[18:01]  You: IT seems more prevalent in the cities.

[18:01]  Boston Hutchinson: Everywhere. You could fly over the Amazon, dropping nanobots, and have every plant in the forest under surveillance

[18:01]  Andromeda Mesmer: Somebody said that the future is here now, but it is just unevenly distributed.

[18:01]  SamBivalent Spork is Offline

[18:02]  You: ...but certainly the net is here, and it gives us all kinds of access to information, and that will grow, and in new ways.

[18:02]  Andromeda Mesmer: Can't remember who.

[18:02]  Boston Hutchinson: I think we can only see a little way down the road.

[18:02]  Andromeda Mesmer: Yes Boston.

[18:02]  You: I'm curious about making a real and signficant Universitiy happen in a virtual world.

[18:02]  Boston Hutchinson: Those inventors of the Internet had a vision they were trying to implement, but it's probably quite different from what they imagined.

[18:03]  You: All the technologies are present -

[18:03]  Andromeda Mesmer: I think it could happen -- I am delighted to see all the unversities in SL.

[18:03]  You: Yes, Boston, and SO MUCH happened by accident.

[18:03]  Boston Hutchinson: A new one, from scratch?

[18:03]  You: Multiple and varied visions, articulated with knowledge production.

[18:03]  Andromeda Mesmer: It actually was happening in a way -- 10 years ago -- one 4th year physics class that I attended -- networked to a classroom to another university.

[18:04]  You: ... and these new synergies from information technologies.

[18:04]  Boston Hutchinson: I think there were fewer accidents and more vision than many people might think.

[18:04]  Andromeda Mesmer: Ther were screens on each student's desk.

[18:04]  Andromeda Mesmer: It didn't work very wekk, but it wasw a start.

[18:04]  You: I'd like to talk with Charlie Nesson about building on what exists on

[18:04]  You: Berkman Island.

[18:05]  Boston Hutchinson: Right now, open courseware is expanding rapidly.

[18:05]  You: Why not high quality degrees, and a trial program.

[18:05]  You: through something like an extension program . . .

[18:05]  Andromeda Mesmer: Well, at the moment, the maximun number of students is about 240 -- based on IBM's auditorium at the corner of 4 sims.

[18:05]  Boston Hutchinson: You could put the professors on the screen, and the TAs in SL

[18:06]  Andromeda Mesmer: Oh -- of course, hadn't thought of that :)

[18:06]  Boston Hutchinson: Like in Becca's class

[18:06]  You: Or even focus on seminars . . . and conversation . .

[18:06]  You: Yes.

[18:06]  Andromeda Mesmer: They there could be multiple separate classes.

[18:06]  You: Yes.

[18:06]  Andromeda Mesmer: All looking at the same professor.

[18:06]  You: Why not start in the fall of 2008 with 4 courses, maybe a law degree program

[18:06]  Perry Proudhon is Online

[18:07]  You: or humanities.

[18:07]  Boston Hutchinson: You'll get the star system for professors-- every student in the world taking the same into physics class.

[18:07]  Andromeda Mesmer: MIT has made classes available on the internet for free --

[18:07]  You: I don't think there plagiarism issues would be very different from real life, with paper writing courses.

[18:07]  Andromeda Mesmer: A star system for profs may not necessarily be best ...

[18:07]  Boston Hutchinson: Yes, Andromeda, they are planning to put all of them on the web, I think

[18:08]  You: Yes, MIT has made the Open Courseware project extensive, but they aren't classes.

[18:08]  Boston Hutchinson: But there may be some parts of the experience that aren't on line

[18:08]  Andromeda Mesmer: Sure -- can' be all there -- you miss the interaction between the students.

[18:08]  Boston Hutchinson: Some of the lectures are on line

[18:08]  You: They've put something like 1500 of 1800 courses online, and professors can opt out, so there's choice, but most participate

[18:09]  You: ... and post syllabi.

[18:09]  Boston Hutchinson: Yes, the interaction can't be replicated, except maybe by using local professors or TAs for each small class group

[18:09]  You: But virtual worlds make interaction possible, and allow for great chioce since people are place bound.

[18:10]  You: Funding for faculty would be an issue.

[18:10]  Boston Hutchinson: You can't, unfortunately, put 1000's of people around the conference table in a graduate seminar.

[18:11]  Andromeda Mesmer: One of the math professors I had a class with, claimed that eventualy there would be far fewer professors -- much bigger classes.

[18:11]  You: Unlike the German University system, I can't think of any pan-American free University system, like the University of Califonria system or the Univ of Michigan system.

[18:11]  Boston Hutchinson: The one-to-one with a top professor may not translate to the SL class.

[18:11]  You: The latter are the closest, and they are state focused, and aren't free.

[18:12]  Tom Bukowski is Online

[18:12]  You: I'd like to iniate such a trial process at Harvard, or somehwere.

[18:13]  You: ...for example, but I'm sure how to get it off the ground.

[18:13]  Andromeda Mesmer: It may be a matter of how countries choose to spend their resources. Even regions -- for example the Canadian province of quebec places a high value on educating people to the fullest, and consequently universities are pretty cheap to go to -- first year is actually free - separated from the university system.

[18:13]  You: I think undergraduates would take such a course, if they were listed in a catalog, and limited to one of 4 or 5.

[18:13]  Boston Hutchinson: I think it's a great idea, especially if you can get permissionto use lectures and materials from some of the most interesting professors studying a subject.

[18:14]  You: That would be great, Boston.

[18:14]  Andromeda Mesmer: The countries that have oil wealth -- like formerly Iraq, and currently Venezuela -- do have free uniersities.

[18:14]  You: How would one do it in the US?

[18:14]  Boston Hutchinson: It would be nice if they were free here!

[18:15]  Andromeda Mesmer: Well, in the case of Quebec, the education is funded by taxes.

[18:16]  You: I wonder if one might fund raise, and get one university like Harvard with a developing mission to serve the public to try one degree program.

[18:16]  Andromeda Mesmer: I think -- using technology to increase the number of students who can "come" to a class -- is the way to go.

[18:16]  Boston Hutchinson: I wonder if it's too scary for Harvard.

[18:16]  You: Let's talk about this more in subsequent weeks.

[18:17]  Barbie Starr is Offline

[18:17]  You: I think Charlie Nesson is visionary, and would be open to such an experiment.

[18:17]  Jagger Valeeva is Offline

[18:17]  Andromeda Mesmer: I did notice -- Harvard, and now Yale -- offer free tuition if the family income is below something like 60,000 ---

[18:17]  You: I'm going to post the rest of this transcript.

[18:17]  You: Good point, Andromeda.

[18:17]  Boston Hutchinson: They probably can't do better than what they nowhave, so they would have to think carefully about offering a lesser degree.

[18:18]  Andromeda Mesmer: There is also the point about the quality of the teachers -- vs. their academic qualifications.

[18:18]  Boston Hutchinson: What if the degree came from a smaller institution, but offered a link to the resources of Harvard.

[18:18]  Andromeda Mesmer: One of the best math profs I had, had a Master's -- he eventually got forced to retire -- pushed out by lack of a Ph.D.

[18:19]  Andromeda Mesmer: But a Ph.D has no relation to quality of teaching.

[18:19]  Boston Hutchinson: THere's a lot of cooperation among schools in Amherst, MA, that might be an example...

[18:20]  Andromeda Mesmer: I know that the smaller universities outside of the city of toronto do cooperate -- if there are too few stsudents for a particular course -- like the physics course -- you reach out to them via the computer connection.

[18:21]  Joe Petrel is Online

[18:21]  Boston Hutchinson: There are on-line schools and degrees. I don't know how good or well thought of they are.

[18:22]  Boston Hutchinson: But they might be interested already in moving into virtual worlds.

[18:22]  Boston Hutchinson: And, as you say, Andromeda, reaching peopleby Internet who can't get to class can be very practical (and economical)

[18:24]  You: I've posted the transcript - February 20, 2008

[18:24]  Andromeda Mesmer: There could be access to universities around the world. Some universities might be considerably more open to classes in virtual worlds than others.

[18:24]  Boston Hutchinson: Wouldn't it work better with better quality virtual worlds? Real video instead of avatars (or a combination) and real telepresence in a classroom?

[18:24]  Eshi Otawara is Online

[18:24]  You: Let's explore the possibility of universities in world next week further.

[18:25]  Boston Hutchinson: OK

[18:25]  Andromeda Mesmer: Fine.

[18:25]  You: Thanks for coming, and nice to see you.

[18:25]  You: Good night!

[18:25]  Claryssa Schmidt: :)

[18:25]  Boston Hutchinson: Thanks for class!

 

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