Society and Information Technology in Second Life

Wednesdays, August 29 - December 12 , 2007, 4-6, SLT/PT, 7-9 pm ET on Berkman island in Second Life

 Course homepage - http://socinfotech.pbwiki.com

 

Instructor: Scott MacLeod (not on Harvard's faculty) = Aphilo Aarde (in Second Life)

http://scottmacleod.com/papers.htm

 

Dec 5 07 Soc & Info Tech Class Transcription

 

 

[16:02]  Connected

[16:02]  Enapa Pennell: evening all

[16:02]  You: Hello All

[16:03]  Rain Ninetails: :)

[16:03]  Boston Hutchinson: Hi Aphilo

[16:03]  Andromeda Mesmer: Good evening Enapa

[16:03]  You: The weather is freezing in Western PA - but not in SL :)

[16:03]  Enapa Pennell: Hi Andromeda. :))

[16:03]  Jagger Valeeva is Offline

[16:03]  You: Hi CWalk

[16:03]  You: Welcome - this is a class about Society and Information Technology

[16:04]  You: http://socinfotech.pbwiki.com

[16:04]  You: You're welcome to participate.

[16:04]  You: Hi Andromeda

[16:04]  Andromeda Mesmer: In SL the cold parts are not as popular as the tropical and subtropical -- cold areas like Zermatt -- were overbuilt by Linden.

[16:04]  You: Hi Geda . . .

[16:05]  Geda Hax: Hi there Ap , all...

[16:05]  Geda Hax: Thanks A

[16:05]  You: I wonder if that's a pattern?

[16:05]  You: cold areas in SL overbuilt?

[16:05]  You: Tonight I'd like to explore informational politics and the state

[16:05]  Andromeda Mesmer: Yes -- Linden Labs thought that the cold, snowy areas would be more popular than they turned out to be.

[16:06]  Xirconnia Morphett is Offline

[16:06]  You: vis-a-vis the information technology revolution

[16:06]  You: That's interesting . .. 20 years from now or longer, will SL archeaology show a pattern, I wonder?

[16:07]  Enapa Pennell: In 20 years SL may abandon the RL metaphore

[16:07]  Andromeda Mesmer: Well, at first I actually felt cold when I visited Zermatt. I still feel a bit underdressed when I go there -- irrational I know, but I feell like I should have a warmer coat.

[16:07]  You: But perhaps always have RL as a reference? Concerning informational potlitics

[16:08]  Rain Ninetails: I was just in a place building a ski slope, and ice skating is strangely popular

[16:08]  Boston Hutchinson: I'd go to Scuol, if they built that. Zermatt is too tourity

[16:08]  Boston Hutchinson: touristy

[16:08]  You: Politics and government have traditionally been divided.

[16:08]  Andromeda Mesmer: Boston, my opinion of Zermatt is that it is a good place to get away from people -- few around when I have seen it.

[16:09]  Boston Hutchinson: :)

[16:09]  You: This world, and croquet, for example, will change a lot in the next few years

[16:09]  You: but criticial mass - enough builders - will be so important for development

[16:10]  You: Politics has traditionally had to do with an analysis of the process

[16:10]  You: of the relationship between society and power

[16:10]  Andromeda Mesmer: Aphilo -- do you mean builders inworld? Or physical infrastructure?

[16:10]  Boston Hutchinson: Croquet has few builders now, but I think with a few small changes, that could be very different

[16:10]  You: I meant builders in-world - multiple minds

[16:11]  You: Here's an interesting video that focuses on SL and croquet, critiquing SL

[16:11]  Andromeda Mesmer: Good news for me, because I want to build and terraform.

[16:12]  You: Ethan Zuckerman critiques Charlie Nesson's engagement with SL - http://youtube.com/watch?v=T_akmmr0ReI

[16:12]  You: Hi Madison.

[16:12]  You: Great, A

[16:12]  Madison Kotobide: Hi

[16:12]  Geda Hax: I have no doubt that this centery word is colaboration ....

[16:12]  Geda Hax: century

[16:13]  You: The study of politics has also focuesed on the structure of the exercise of power.

[16:13]  You: (yes, G, an dconvergence, and interoperability)

[16:13]  Barbie Starr is Offline

[16:14]  Geda Hax: yep

[16:14]  You: I'd like to offer a slightly idiosyncratic approach, vis-a-vis Castells, to look at society > politics > government's relationship

[16:15]  You: How in this new context is information politics transformed?

[16:15]  You: The transformation of governemnt has moved in a kind of Network state

[16:16]  You: And within this contect, politics referes to the exercies of power.

[16:16]  Eon Berkman is Online

[16:16]  You: Power here is the ability by someone or something to induce behavior by someone else

[16:17]  You: And to impose behavior on someone else

[16:17]  You: regardless of consensus.

[16:17]  You: For example, if I say 'do this'

[16:17]  You: you can say "got to hell"

[16:17]  You: And I say - ok - but do it or you flunk

[16:18]  You: This someone or soemthing is the critical difference

[16:18]  Boston Hutchinson: Which, being a warm destination, would be popular in sl...

[16:18]  You: And this distinction is not usually made by political science.

[16:18]  Jagger Valeeva is Online

[16:18]  Andromeda Mesmer: :) or get fired, or put in jail, or thrown out of the church ...

[16:18]  You: In a university, (:))

[16:19]  Sean18 McCarey is Offline

[16:19]  You: sorry - in politics - someone will say soemthing to someone, and to make them do it,

[16:20]  Sean18 McCarey is Online

[16:20]  You: they ultimately, thorugh institutional capacity make this happen through the capacity to use violence

[16:21]  You: Teh ability, ultimately, to call upon violence - ulimately makes power power

[16:21]  You: What non-people can make you do something in the information age?

[16:21]  You: What institutions or bureaucracies?

[16:21]  You: Global financial markets.

[16:22]  You: Overall the logic isnt' decided by anyone, but by a network of financial transactions.

[16:22]  You: Imagine, for example, a nuclear accident....

[16:22]  You: which forces you to live in a particular way -

[16:23]  You: it has teh power to impose which kind of thing you have to do.

[16:23]  You: And while global markets are important, so is the Media

[16:23]  You: There is a collective power of media over another.

[16:23]  You: It's not one power - there are always alternative choices

[16:24]  You: But it's the collective nature that impacts behavior.

[16:24]  You: You might ask = isn't there one person at the head of a media corporation?

[16:25]  Andromeda Mesmer: Rupert Murdoch is very powerful, others may be less so.

[16:25]  You: There is, but they don't have power in any measure relative to the collective power of the media

[16:25]  You: True . . . but in the information age, there are so many channels of information

[16:25]  You: Cable tv reshaped this in the 1970s and 80s - adding 100s of new channles

[16:26]  You: and now we have an infinite number of urls - uniform resource locators.

[16:26]  You: And government leaders who are elected have power.

[16:27]  Bruce Flyer is Online

[16:27]  You: But power involves an institutional setting where power is exercised.

[16:28]  You: So power in the context of governments which are elected (you have to be 18 to vote in most places)

[16:28]  You: involves two things

[16:28]  You: 1) where power is exercised through structure

[16:28]  You: and 2) where power is exercised through people

[16:29]  You: What is politics?

[16:29]  You: Politics then is the process by which the will and interest of socity are processed into power relationships

[16:29]  Joe Petrel is Online

[16:30]  Enapa Pennell: and the URLs are, ufortunately, mostly accessed via search indexes. A layer of control structure on the maze of information resources.

[16:30]  You: So for example - through elections which are what happen in society

[16:30]  You: (True Enapa - but point to point communication and multiple search engines distribute this).

[16:31]  Joe Petrel is Offline

[16:31]  Bruce Flyer: is politics as much about info as about power?

[16:31]  You: So what is new?

[16:31]  You: Yes, Bruce - especially through the media, and its collective effects

[16:31]  Andromeda Mesmer: Agreed, Bruce.

[16:32]  You: Access to institutions determines how power is organized in politics.

[16:32]  Bruce Flyer: the media no longer holds all the "cards"

[16:32]  You: In the US, this is a competitive process

[16:32]  You: True

[16:32]  Patrio Graysmark is Online

[16:32]  You: and partly thanks to the Internet

[16:33]  You: A fundamental transformation - since the 1990s forward - is that teh media has become the

[16:33]  You: area / medium of the communication system -

[16:33]  You: through which people obtain information and form their opinion.

[16:34]  Bruce Flyer: term limits has served to undermine what was good about representative democracy

[16:34]  You: Through information, ideas and images, people form opinions - and this all comes signficantly through meida.

[16:34]  You: True - which reflects the institution of politics in this society

[16:35]  You: But the development of this new communcation system which affects how information ideas and images are mediated -

[16:35]  You: is a fundamental change in recent political development

[16:35]  You: Elections are shaped by what people receive through media as a system

[16:36]  You: Whoever is not in the media, as a political representative, is not a choice

[16:36]  Bruce Flyer: does it lead to a deeper discussion or just faster expression of simple answers?

[16:36]  You: If you are in the media, you are in, and that's it.

[16:36]  Boston Hutchinson: :)

[16:36]  You: Good question :)

[16:37]  You: Therefore, presence in media is a fundamental change

[16:37]  You: As is this new language of communication also fundamental

[16:38]  You: So, I'm offering an overarching analysis . . . which perhaps we can nuance at the end of this time this evening.

[16:38]  You: The large majority of people react to very simple messages.

[16:39]  You: Often relayed through political platforms

[16:39]  Bruce Flyer: and some leaders are swayed by whoever has the best simple interpretation of a situation

[16:39]  You: But the ability to build opinion through the study of the platform is limited.

[16:39]  You: Even with reading, platforms are written to solicit positive feelings.

[16:40]  Bruce Flyer: and to package sets of ideas that can win elections

[16:40]  You: And htis is ambiguous

[16:40]  You: Yes . . .

[16:40]  You: Parties have to be open enough to attract different groups

[16:40]  You: In Europe you have the left and liberalism and the right and conservativism

[16:41]  You: and within this system all parties move to the center

[16:41]  You: There's a kind of crawling to the center.

[16:41]  You: More people move to the center, than not >

[16:41]  You: And they become different to differentiate themselves

[16:41]  You: So the extremes represent less than 3%

[16:42]  You: And a lot don't vote and don't care

[16:42]  You: In the U.S. 50% of the population votes

[16:42]  You: and then candidates win if they gain more than 50% of that vote

[16:43]  Bruce Flyer: in our politics, personal growth is evidence of inconsistency

[16:43]  You: And sometimes in the U.s. a 48% return wins

[16:43]  You: True

[16:43]  Sean18 McCarey is Offline

[16:43]  You: But in a recent election, 27% of the population voted

[16:43]  Bruce Flyer: maybe democracy is not able to cope with complexity

[16:43]  You: It's depressing.

[16:44]  You: esp when the system here is extended to take include 300 million people, from a few million in the late 1770s.

[16:45]  You: In recent California Governor elections 30% voted, and 70% didnt' vote

[16:45]  You: In local elections, 25% vote and 75% don't vote

[16:45]  You: A small minority vote

[16:45]  You: The mechanism:

[16:45]  Boston Hutchinson: It really becomes a problem if the demographics (and opinions) of the voters and non-voters diverge.

[16:45]  Diego Ibanez is Online

[16:45]  Bruce Flyer: small business owers cannot afford to serve on juries and so may not register to vote

[16:46]  You: Yes and true. And of the people

[16:46]  You: who vote, it's the 10% in the middle who decide

[16:46]  You: If you are on the right as a candidate, you have to appear as left as you can without losing your 45% and vice versa

[16:47]  You: From the point of view of winning the game

[16:47]  You: Through images and message, you have to win.

[16:47]  Boston Hutchinson: Is that bad?

[16:47]  Geda Hax: here to vote is mandatory ....pfft

[16:47]  You: you don't count on your votes - and some parties encourage abstention

[16:47]  You: It's not bad, it's just the way it works.

[16:48]  Bruce Flyer: Geda, does forcing people to vote improve the decisions made at the polls?

[16:48]  Diego Ibanez is Offline

[16:48]  Geda Hax: not at all

[16:48]  You: So you go as close to the cetner as you can, hiping that some voters will drop out.

[16:48]  Bruce Flyer: i agree

[16:48]  Andromeda Mesmer: There is also the technique of "caging" votes in the Us -- to prevent people from voting if they are likely to vote for your oppponent.

[16:48]  You: Where's that Geda?

[16:48]  You: Yes, A.

[16:48]  Andromeda Mesmer: Brazil and Ausralia too.

[16:49]  Andromeda Mesmer: compulsory vote

[16:49]  Bruce Flyer: democracy is a complex adaptive systems largely involving communication of info

[16:49]  You: And if the system becomes so disaffected, a low percentage turnout can become a high % trunout.

[16:49]  Bruce Flyer: and yet people riot and die for lack of democracy

[16:50]  You: It doesn't respect freedom of speech not to vote

[16:50]  You: and then they become apathetic, forgetting its importance and history.

[16:50]  You: and we lose freedoms

[16:50]  Geda Hax: yes Brazil

[16:51]  You: In austria, when people voted less, the extreme right took 15-20%

[16:51]  Bruce Flyer: can people in prisons in US vote?

[16:51]  Robyn Proto is Online

[16:51]  Boston Hutchinson: I think that varies by state, Bruce

[16:51]  You: Most financial backers, bank sometime to win, so ultimately there's a financial movement to the center.

[16:51]  You: And I think most do not, Bruce, although I'm curious to see the statistics

[16:52]  Andromeda Mesmer: No. no vote inprison. In Florida, you can't vote even after you get out of prison, unless you make a special applicaion.

[16:52]  You: So finance interests move to the center

[16:53]  You: And only very narrow fully commtted interest groups pull the vote away - e.g. moral majority, and abortion

[16:54]  You: So the whole motion is to capture teh center.

[16:54]  You: And this has to be done in the media.

[16:54]  You: Media campaigns have become critical

[16:54]  Patrio Graysmark is Offline

[16:54]  Bruce Flyer is Offline

[16:54]  You: There are two key techniques

[16:54]  You: 1) telephone campaigns

[16:55]  You: 2) and targetted mailings

[16:55]  You: both are critical

[16:55]  Bruce Flyer is Online

[16:55]  Geda Hax: bet..

[16:55]  You: The logic of marketing and commercial selling has translated to politics

[16:55]  You: Organziations sell mailing lists

[16:55]  You: Through media, you CONVINCE

[16:56]  You: Through telephone banks and mailing list, you mobilize

[16:56]  Breen Mathy is Online

[16:56]  You: All this requires information

[16:56]  You: And a commercial company can compile potential

[16:56]  Enapa Pennell: and, mostly I believe, establish name recognition. Not platform recognition

[16:57]  You: preferences for multiple candidates

[16:57]  You: and sell them to specific candidates

[16:57]  You: Yes, Enapa

[16:57]  Bruce Flyer: maybe we are putting too much emphasis on info and not enought on identity

[16:58]  You: And it is at this point that the political scineces can tell you how people will vote in the next election through statistical probability

[16:58]  Bruce Flyer: what is going on the Middle East is more about identity than ideas, i think

[16:58]  You: First, mobilize the electorate, through canvassing, phone banks, direct mailings, ambulances for the sick and derelict to vote

[16:59]  You: I am focusing on the U.S. for the moment.

[16:59]  You: What's most important is to

[16:59]  You: inform and persuade

[16:59]  You: and this is done through projecting images of good things for you, the voter, if the candidate is elected

[16:59]  You: and this is done through the media

[16:59]  Andromeda Mesmer: Well, first you have to get the potential voters registered, and that can be difficult.

[17:00]  You: True - and often turnout is very low - Here things

[17:00]  You: Here things become tricky -

[17:00]  You: because political media interruptions cannot be too long.

[17:01]  You: The key issue is to have media spots or include poitical informaiton in the news

[17:01]  You: not by bribing journalists,

[17:01]  You: but through creating events so that journalists have to cover them

[17:01]  You: What pollsters have found

[17:02]  You: is that a negative message is 5 times as effective as a positive one

[17:02]  You: No message is simple

[17:02]  You: So a good message requires description

[17:02]  You: Let's take a break now ....

[17:02]  You: And come back in 7 minutes...

[17:02]  You: or so

[17:02]  Andromeda Mesmer: 5 times!!! I didn't know that.

[17:03]  Breen Mathy is Offline

[17:03]  You: If you destroy, you're almost the winner !

[17:03]  VikingMoonshot Akroyd shouts: order.

[17:03]  You: Break time . . .

[17:03]  You: See you shortly . . .

[17:03]  Geda Hax: oh yes , people tend to talk more about bad things that good things

[17:03]  Andromeda Mesmer: It backfired badly in an election in my area --

[17:03]  Geda Hax: bruce I am also having a bad animation day

[17:04]  Geda Hax: *than

[17:04]  Geda Hax: hmm in fact a bad animation week or even month .... this typing thing

[17:04]  Boston Hutchinson: The negative messages usually have to be delivered by someone not directly connected to a candidate. The gun seems to fire in both directions.

[17:05]  Andromeda Mesmer: The strangest animation problem I have had is here in the sandbox, where I just spun around and could not stop.

[17:06]  Bruce Flyer is Offline

[17:06]  Boston Hutchinson: Do people cause these animation problems, or are they just bugs in the program?

[17:06]  Andromeda Mesmer: You mean as in malicious attack causing somebody to move?

[17:06]  Andromeda Mesmer: Or something the person does?

[17:06]  Boston Hutchinson: Yes, or maybe accidental.

[17:06]  Geda Hax: well I am not sure but this typing thing is bloody annoying

[17:07]  Geda Hax: its not

[17:07]  Enapa Pennell: My understanding is that the client renders the scene, The sim just delivers the references and scriptes

[17:07]  Andromeda Mesmer: When I was spinning around, I wondered if it had anything to do with me continually rotating on the pedestel at the store where I show clothes to customers.

[17:07]  Geda Hax: sometimes I am not typing anything and I see my avatar typing a book

[17:07]  Andromeda Mesmer: People could see me spinning -- and it happened twice in Berkman Sandbox.

[17:07]  Geda Hax: then to stop it I have to type whatever in the main channel

[17:08]  Boston Hutchinson: Hmmm. I haven't noticed many of these problems, but

[17:08]  Andromeda Mesmer shouts: You are pretty, Vincent

[17:08]  Boston Hutchinson: occasionaly my avatar won't stop moving for a while

[17:08]  Vincent Devoix shouts: Thank you. ^^

[17:08]  Diego Ibanez is Online

[17:09]  Boston Hutchinson: Spoke too soon! I' having a problem now!

[17:09]  Geda Hax nods

[17:09]  Boston Hutchinson: I type and hit enter and no text appears. Then my avatar keeps typing for a minute or so, and finally the text arrives.

[17:10]  Boston Hutchinson: It might be a Windows bug.

[17:10]  Bruce Flyer is Online

[17:10]  Geda Hax: lots of friends are complaining , after this last update things got even worse

[17:10]  Enapa Pennell: this is often called "lag" here

[17:10]  Boston Hutchinson: Yes, and I've got it now!

[17:10]  Geda Hax: see I was not typing anything now

[17:10]  Boston Hutchinson: I've seen Windows bugs that put a long lag into a program sometimes.

[17:11]  Geda Hax: .

[17:11]  Geda Hax: and this is not due to any lag

[17:11]  Geda Hax: wb bruce

[17:11]  Boston Hutchinson: I write real-time software, and it sometimes is hard to get it to run correctly under Windows.

[17:11]  Bruce Flyer: tks

[17:11]  Geda Hax: I see

[17:12]  Daisyblue Hefferman is Offline

[17:12]  Enapa Pennell: The video driver seems to be a critical element for the SL client.

[17:12]  Andromeda Mesmer: I have a Macintosh, so I expect problems, but generally it is not too bad.

[17:12]  You: I don't have many problems with my macbook either.

[17:12]  Boston Hutchinson: It's possible that the typing motion gets scheduled and then delayed and occurs at the wrong time.

[17:12]  Andromeda Mesmer: There seem to be problems whenever there is an inroduction of a big new feature.

[17:13]  Geda Hax: well......sometimes it seems not to reflect what I was typing

[17:13]  Enapa Pennell: I've gone into debug options and disabled the typing anim. gets rid of the noise as well.

[17:13]  You: It's a very stable platform, relative to windows - I made the switch about a year ago, and with parallels I can run a more stable windows - and SL works on both platforms, and even concurrently with an alt

[17:14]  Andromeda Mesmer: So you can actually talk to yourself in SL? :)

[17:14]  You: (The macintosh users group in SL is large, and rich source for infomraiton).

[17:14]  Boston Hutchinson: Yes, Geda, it could be that the typing gets turned on and then not turned off, so that it starts too late and also runs too long.

[17:14]  You: I'd like to see avatars (mine, too) start differentiating

[17:15]  You: so that I might hold a conversation with it :)

[17:15]  Sean18 McCarey is Online

[17:15]  Boston Hutchinson: It may be an on/off command, so that once turned on, if the O/S gets distracted, it (the typing) just keeps going

[17:15]  You: Poker programs win 70-80% of the time -

[17:15]  Geda Hax: yes , it does seem to run longer than what I typed

[17:15]  Andromeda Mesmer: Aphilo, I was thinking about your previous comment, a few weeks ago, about the avatar talking back to us

[17:15]  Arawn Spitteler is Online

[17:16]  You: articulate that with a speech program, and differntiated operating systems, and do you have the beginning of autonomous avatars?

[17:16]  Andromeda Mesmer: I think a better possibility of A.I might be with the babies that people can buy, or maybe the AI cats or AI goldfish.

[17:16]  Veeyawn Spoonhammer is Online

[17:16]  You: Yes, I'm referring to that as well.

[17:16]  Bruce Flyer: there could be a Turing-type test for an autonomous avatar

[17:17]  You: Yes, but SL is so malleable, and there are potentially a lot of folks to create a kind of conversation that would further this project / vision.

[17:17]  You: Exactly, Bruce

[17:17]  Boston Hutchinson: AI has a long way to go before we'll get credible avatar-robots

[17:17]  Andromeda Mesmer: The SF writer Charlie stross has a character who starts off as an AI cat, little more than a toy for the girl -- who just keeps growing in capabilities and evenually becomes very very intelligent.

[17:17]  Bruce Flyer: autonomous navigation would be almost impossible

[17:17]  You: And yet, Boston, what about a poker playing bot, in the form of an avatar?

[17:17]  You: As a start?

[17:18]  Andromeda Mesmer: Novel -- Accelerando -- has the AI cat character, and lots more -- including inelligent lobsters who take off .

[17:18]  Boston Hutchinson: In SL, Bruce? I'd think that might be easier than in RL, because you're navigating inside a program.

[17:18]  You: Sci Fi is a great source for ideas.

[17:18]  Boston Hutchinson: Poker is easy

[17:18]  Bruce Flyer: i had difficulty finding a concert "at" Princeton because the door did not look like a door

[17:19]  Bruce Flyer: wound up exploring entire campus

[17:19]  You: Perhaps . . . but then turn a card into an written expression

[17:19]  Boston Hutchinson: like chess, etc. It's a relatively simple AI problem and relies on skills possesed by computers more than humans.

[17:19]  Andromeda Mesmer: In the last chess contest with the IBM compuer, the chess master said that it felt like the compuer had developed intuition.

[17:19]  You: Exponentially expand the number of cards and plays . . .and voila

[17:20]  Boston Hutchinson: But the program would identify it's behaviour, Bruce, so the robot would know what the human avatar did not know.

[17:20]  You: Can you oost an url, A, for that?

[17:21]  You: 'post

[17:21]  Bruce Flyer: what is the role of the robot in this scenario?

[17:21]  Andromeda Mesmer: For the chess match? Sorry, no -- I read it in the newspaper -- it was not in the first series of games, but in the second series, about a year later.

[17:21]  You: as a platform upon which autonomy grows

[17:21]  You: ok, thanks.

[17:21]  You: I'll search for it.

[17:21]  Bruce Flyer: evolution happens where there are two layers of "agents"

[17:21]  Bruce Flyer: like micro and macro

[17:22]  Bruce Flyer: in recursion

[17:22]  You: that differentiate - .So let's return to information politics

[17:22]  You: and recursively communicate . . . :)

[17:22]  Andromeda Mesmer: In Heinlein's "Moon is a Harsh Mistress" the compuer becomes conscious, but the process is not obvious to anybody except to the guy who takes care of it.

[17:22]  You: That's a key moment, Bruce.

[17:23]  You: I'm thinking along the lines of Tim Berners-Lee - just seeing possible convergences that no one else may have considered.

[17:23]  You: But the moment of differentiation will be interesting.

[17:23]  You: so politics

[17:23]  You: So, if you destroy

[17:24]  You: you're almost the winner

[17:24]  You: 2/3 of voters recently voted not for a candidate but against a candidate

[17:24]  You: People vote to prevent catastrophes

[17:24]  Andromeda Mesmer: Aphilo, there must be exceptions somewhere to that -- maybe under special circumstances?

[17:24]  Bruce Flyer: weak resons to go to the polls in the snow/rain

[17:25]  You: People will follow negative message rather than postiive messags.

[17:25]  Bruce Flyer: to vote against

[17:25]  Boston Hutchinson: Too bad it doesn't work--preventing catastrophies....

[17:25]  You: Yes, A . . .but it is a pattern.

[17:25]  Andromeda Mesmer: Case in Venezuela -

[17:25]  You: True . . hopefully an opportunity will present itself in 08

[17:25]  Bruce Flyer: then winner claims "mandate"

[17:25]  Geda Hax: tsk tsk tsk guys , down here is even worse

[17:26]  Andromeda Mesmer: In he referendum on their constitution, there were claims in Churches, that the government was going to take away children from their mothers -- so the people decided NOT to vote, rather than voe - they got confused. The church in Venezuela is pretty pwoerful.

[17:26]  You: How do information technologies prevent against 3rd parties?

[17:26]  Geda Hax: I dont wanna go into that so I am gonna monopolize the class with LA politics .....none of us want there , right ? ;)

[17:26]  You: I see. Because negative events are

[17:26]  You: :)

[17:27]  You: effective, the key move is to provide information to the media, to show bad resulsts to the media, if a candidte is elected

[17:27]  You: The problem is that the other side can do it too.

[17:27]  Boston Hutchinson: Los Angeles? I used to live there.

[17:27]  Geda Hax: latin america

[17:27]  Andromeda Mesmer: Latin America.

[17:27]  Bruce Flyer: i was not aware info tech is against 3rd party candidates -- how so?

[17:27]  Boston Hutchinson: Oh

[17:28]  Andromeda Mesmer: We could consider Ron Paul as being almost in a 3rd party situation.

[17:28]  You: So the problem with negative media is that it creates a back lash

[17:28]  Bruce Flyer: a viable third party needs to not be based on one person

[17:29]  Bruce Flyer: it needs a nitch in the info ecology

[17:29]  You: and opnes the possibility for a third party candidate

[17:29]  You: sorry, typo . . .

[17:29]  You: helps 3rd party candidates

[17:30]  You: Because of the negative attacks, there's a rise in the number of votes for 3rd party candidates,

[17:30]  Bruce Flyer: does the structure of our brains create our gravitation to "left, right" in our political systems?

[17:30]  You: ross Perot is a good example

[17:30]  Boston Hutchinson: so Bloomberg will come in when the rest beat each other up...

[17:30]  Jagger Valeeva is Offline

[17:30]  You: not if you look at teh german system . . .

[17:31]  Boston Hutchinson: Sorry, this must be boring for anyone outside the U.S.!

[17:31]  You: And rules . . . they make parties become part of the flow.

[17:31]  Geda Hax: nahh

[17:31]  Bruce Flyer: :-)

[17:31]  You: In the U.S., there are 2 parties,

[17:31]  Geda Hax: thats very interesting to know better how you guys think

[17:31]  You: and in Europe, many parties

[17:31]  Diego Ibanez is Offline

[17:32]  Boston Hutchinson: Yes, but Germany is still dominated by SPD and CDU, isn't it?

[17:32]  Andromeda Mesmer: The Greens are important in Germany.

[17:32]  Geda Hax: I work with lots of americans but we only talk about work related matters

[17:32]  You: The 3rd party voting pattern doesn't fall to the cetner left or the center right

[17:32]  Andromeda Mesmer: Lots of smaller parties in Italy too -- their point of view has to be considered in coalitions.

[17:32]  Boston Hutchinson: Oh, yes. They were pretty small when I was there in 1980

[17:32]  You: (But multiple party coalitions in Germany affect votes

[17:33]  You: But because the negative message is effective

[17:33]  Bruce Flyer: could global warming lead to the creation of a global Green party?

[17:33]  You: The media becomes an important ground for a negative fight - and I think this extends beyond the U.S.

[17:34]  Boston Hutchinson: Politics is a dangerous subject in the office, but more interesting here.

[17:34]  You: Perhaps, bruce - it's an interesting opportunity, but I think they would have to influence the U.N.

[17:34]  Bruce Flyer: by media do you include blogs and so forth?

[17:35]  You: How can we analyze damaging, negative media information?

[17:35]  You: Most journalist find this stuff in their mailboxes . . . they don't dig it out.

[17:35]  You: And there are firms which specialize in this.

[17:35]  You: Because someone does this, everybody does this.

[17:36]  You: Counter infomraiton systems are necessary to deter adverse information from opponents.

[17:36]  Bruce Flyer: more complex thinking would tend to reward more positive communications

[17:36]  You: After clinton succeeded in diverting the Jennifer Flowers affair,

[17:37]  Andromeda Mesmer: In the news there was an item that Hilary Clinton had people ready to counteract any negative news immediately.

[17:37]  You: Someone had to counter informaiton to counter more negative Jennifer Flower's infomraiton in media

[17:37]  Andromeda Mesmer: And there was also a story that one of her staffers had started the rumour that Barak Obama was a Muslim.

[17:37]  You: Yes, A . . .these response 'machines' are very sophisticated and fast.

[17:37]  You: It's not a moral issue

[17:38]  You: A campaing just need to be prepared to counter leaks with counter-leaks

[17:38]  You: And a whole market develops.

[17:38]  You: How can politicians be so bad, to be susceptible to coutner information?

[17:39]  Bruce Flyer: i think it is the system. good people will not get in because of the money game

[17:39]  You: If one adds up all these media sources that occur everyday, what counts is what one does everyday to shape public impressions

[17:39]  You: Yes, I'm mostly talking about candidates taht have already made it into the media

[17:40]  You: Candidates start the day with a media breakfast of themselves and their opponent.

[17:40]  You: ANd this media process is very expensive - it needs to be financed.

[17:40]  You: People aren't keen to tax themselves further to finance this.

[17:41]  You: In the U.s. system is direct.

[17:41]  You: It's expensive and requires campaing contributions.

[17:41]  You: Campaign contributions mean there is pay back.

[17:41]  Bruce Flyer: is there a way to open source a poltical campaign, whatever that may mean?

[17:41]  You: And more than that, with strict legislations, the limists are growing.

[17:42]  You: So let's start with your question Bruce in a discussion.

[17:42]  You: How can open source affect elections.

[17:43]  Bruce Flyer: you can open source an encyclopedia

[17:43]  You: Moveon.org is one interesting example where very well thought out, targetted messages had an effect in shaping public opinion.

[17:43]  You: what are other examples?

[17:43]  Bruce Flyer: you can open source an operating system

[17:43]  Jon Seattle is Online

[17:43]  Boston Hutchinson: If media were free, as with the internet, wouldn't you still need consultants, polsters, strategist to craft the message?

[17:43]  Bruce Flyer: there needs to be a structure that people understand and can contribute to, but not in cash

[17:44]  Free Radar HUD v1.1 by Crystal Gadgets

[17:44]  You: governments are still bureaucracies, and need people to run them, while Internet governance is relatively people-light

[17:44]  You: perhaps that is a model.

[17:45]  Bruce Flyer: what is internet governance? -- ICANN or whatever?

[17:45]  You: Yes, Boston, but the Internet is very, very low cost . . . moveon.org and political e-mails capitialize, so to speak, on this.

[17:45]  Boston Hutchinson: Viral Youtube marketing?

[17:45]  You: Yes :)

[17:45]  You: As the Internet was just developing

[17:45]  Andromeda Mesmer: Hmm -- Rupert Murdoch has a huge media empire, has influenced politics in the UK and Australia, and has now bought a religious website which has 3 million unique visitors per mont http://business.smh.com.au/god-on-his-side-murdoch-buys-religious-website/20071205-1f6w.html

[17:45]  Bruce Flyer: a viral model of higher education would be interesting

[17:46]  You: both Howard Dean and the repulican strategist used the internet very successfully.

[17:46]  Andromeda Mesmer: And there is much more about this Rupert Murdoch takeover elsewhere.

[17:46]  Boston Hutchinson: But the strategists need to be very skilled. Will they work for free if their tools and media are free?

[17:46]  Geda Hax: very good example A

[17:46]  You: The main republican strategist, whom I heard at Harvard

[17:46]  Boston Hutchinson: What, Bruce, no professors? Uh oh.

[17:46]  You: successfully used mapping technologies to target specific neighborhoods for last minute vote getting, and

[17:46]  Free Radar HUD v1.1 by Crystal Gadgets

[17:46]  Bruce Flyer: :-)

[17:47]  You: Yes, A - media and religion are a potent force in politics

[17:48]  Perry Proudhon is Online

[17:48]  You: Rove may have helped get Bush elected through raising the red flag of gay marriage in front of fundamentalist churches through the media.

[17:48]  Boston Hutchinson: Is religion important in politics in Latin America? It seems to be much less so in Europe.

[17:48]  You: Good question, Boston.

[17:48]  You: Geda? A?

[17:48]  Geda Hax: It is

[17:49]  Geda Hax: all that can manipulate non educated people

[17:49]  Geda Hax: is used

[17:49]  Andromeda Mesmer: I get the impression that it is becoming less important in Latin America.

[17:49]  You: Often people vote their identity, and the church can often be very significant in this respect.

[17:49]  Boston Hutchinson: And why are North Americans more fundamentalist than Europeans?

[17:49]  Geda Hax: and heavly

[17:50]  Andromeda Mesmer: Divorce is being allowed now. Big fights against that ...

[17:50]  You: A legacy of history, I think, for one, Boston. In many Scandanavian and other European countries, there's an inverse relationship between industrialization, modernity, and the network society and religion.

[17:50]  Bruce Flyer: i am trying now to visualize an election as a swarm of memes

[17:51]  Boston Hutchinson: Good idea, Bruce

[17:51]  Andromeda Mesmer: Bruce - interesting image!

[17:51]  You: how to swat the negative memes away, Bruce, is a serious challenge for candidates.

[17:51]  You: So next week will be our last class this winter.

[17:52]  Boston Hutchinson: Better than a swarm of politicians

[17:52]  Geda Hax: awww Ap

[17:52]  Bruce Flyer: we have gnats in S Georgia

[17:52]  You: I hope to teach this course again starting in January, here, but that is still pending.

[17:52]  You: :)

[17:52]  Champler Snook is Online

[17:52]  Boston Hutchinson: I thot this wud go on forever

[17:53]  Geda Hax: until what time will todays class go , I need to leave at 6 pm

[17:53]  You: unitl 6 SLT

[17:53]  Geda Hax: me too Boston

[17:53]  Geda Hax: oh ok Ap , I am good then

[17:53]  Bruce Flyer: i hope you continue this somewhere, some how

[17:53]  You: Keep in touch about other classes here next semester.

[17:53]  You: I do too, Bruce...

[17:54]  Bruce Flyer: what is the constraint?

[17:54]  Geda Hax: yep , one of the best things in sl is learning , exploring and ideas being exchanged ....

[17:54]  You: Rebecca may be teaching a class here next semester, with at large participation possible, as well as others.

[17:54]  Geda Hax: *are

[17:54]  You: It's a rich opporutnity for idea excahnge - in SL

[17:55]  Bruce Flyer: there may be room at Princeton, if necessary

[17:55]  Geda Hax nods

[17:55]  You: I'm curious how these technologies will develop

[17:55]  You: That's good to know, Bruce

[17:55]  Enapa Pennell: I agree, the exchage of ideas in SL is one of its best attributes

[17:55]  Bruce Flyer: please give us an easy way to keep in touch, Aphilo

[17:55]  You: Who doesn't have a facebook page here?

[17:55]  Geda Hax: I dont

[17:56]  Bruce Flyer: i don't

[17:56]  Enapa Pennell: nor I

[17:56]  Andromeda Mesmer: Not me.

[17:56]  Geda Hax: we could create a group for us

[17:56]  Boston Hutchinson: I'm a newbie in Facebook.

[17:56]  Champler Snook is Offline

[17:56]  You: They're easy

[17:56]  Boston Hutchinson: Yes, a group might be good.

[17:56]  You: Would you like to do that, Geda?

[17:56]  You: In google?

[17:56]  Geda Hax: I thought about a sl group

[17:57]  Diego Ibanez is Online

[17:57]  You: I haven't done that before.

[17:57]  Bruce Flyer: facebook pages for our avatars?

[17:57]  You: There's a facebook app for SL.

[17:57]  Sean18 McCarey is Offline

[17:57]  You: ...avatars...

[17:57]  Geda Hax: so we could be in touch and also letting each other know where we can have more classes like this Ap

[17:57]  Bruce Flyer: i hope my avatar earns tenure some day

[17:57]  Andromeda Mesmer: That is an interesting idea, a facebook for avatars -- but we kind of have that in our profiles.

[17:57]  Geda Hax: its easy to create one

[17:58]  Andromeda Mesmer: Bruce - LOL

[17:58]  You: Let's do it in the last few minutes, Geda, if we can...

[17:58]  Geda Hax: oh I dont know anything about facebook

[17:58]  Geda Hax: ok

[17:58]  You: here in SL...

[17:59]  Andromeda Mesmer: Unfortunately -- I have to dash off -- got an appointment. But I will talk to you later, Geda.

[17:59]  You: Bye, A

[17:59]  Rain Ninetails: :)

[17:59]  Bruce Flyer: bye all

[17:59]  Boston Hutchinson: Bye Andromeda

[17:59]  Geda Hax: No problem A , see you later

[17:59]  Enapa Pennell: goodby, Andromeda

[17:59]  You: Bye, Bruce

[17:59]  Daisyblue Hefferman is Online

[17:59]  Geda Hax: bye Bruce and A

[18:00]  Boston Hutchinson: So does anyone know how to create a group?

[18:00]  You: I'm looking presently

[18:00]  You: But edit/groups doesn't give me the opp to create one . . .

[18:00]  Geda Hax: I do

[18:00]  Boston Hutchinson: It looks like Edit/group/create...

[18:00]  Second Life: You have left the group 'Virtual Public Radio'.

[18:00]  Enapa Pennell: I'm going as well, bye all. Thank you Aphilo. All

[18:01]  Barbie Starr is Online

[18:01]  Boston Hutchinson: Bye Enapa

[18:01]  Geda Hax: Bye Enapa , see you next week

[18:01]  Bruce Flyer is Offline

[18:01]  Boston Hutchinson: I've got a menu here--edit groups create in a blue button on the right

[18:02]  Boston Hutchinson: What should we call it?

[18:02]  You: Yes, it appears to cost 100$ to start a group, which I don't have

[18:02]  You: Hi Kwan Bul!

[18:02]  Boston Hutchinson: Oh. I don

[18:02]  Enapa Pennell is Offline

[18:02]  Geda Hax: dang I have in my work account

[18:02]  KwanBul Dawg: Hello Scott!

[18:02]  Gwyneth Llewelyn is Offline

[18:02]  Geda Hax: I have 97

[18:02]  Geda Hax: does anyone have 3 more

[18:02]  Boston Hutchinson: 't have any money, sp would have to do it after getting some

[18:03]  You: How about - Soc & Info Tech - Aphilo

[18:03]  You: Thank you, Rain!

[18:03]  Rain Ninetails: :)

[18:04]  Geda Hax: how much do you still need Ap

[18:04]  You: I now have the money, but it's not allowing me to create a group.

[18:04]  You: Hmm.

[18:04]  You: Hang on

[18:04]  Xirconnia Morphett is Online

[18:05]  Geda Hax: ok

[18:05]  You: It's still not allowing me to create the group.

[18:05]  Geda Hax: thats strange

[18:05]  You: I may have to log out and log in - I'm not sure

[18:05]  Geda Hax: maybe

[18:06]  You: Except for Rain, I think I can im all of you directly.

[18:06]  Boston Hutchinson: I could try it here, but you should be the founder, Aphilo.

[18:06]  You: I try to do create a group, after logging out, and then get in touch with all of you.

[18:06]  Geda Hax: yes

[18:07]  You: But not right now. . .

[18:07]  Boston Hutchinson: Yes, maybe if you let us know, we can then join.

[18:07]  You: And I think I'll be able to find you through people, Rain, won't I/

[18:07]  Geda Hax: Ok no problem , let us know

[18:07]  Rain Ninetails: yes

[18:07]  Geda Hax: you can set it the way you want

[18:07]  You: Yes, Boston

[18:07]  Eon Berkman is Offline

[18:07]  You: Great...

[18:07]  Geda Hax: like only invited ones

[18:07]  Luciftias Neurocam is Online

[18:07]  You: Then see you next week.

[18:07]  Rain Ninetails: :)

[18:07]  Geda Hax: ok thanks Ap , see you next week

[18:08]  Rain Ninetails: bye Aphilo

[18:08]  Boston Hutchinson: OK. Great discussion and lecture. Thanks Aphilo

[18:08]  Geda Hax: Bye guys , see you on wed

[18:08]  You: Good night . . .Thanks for coming . . . glad we talked about some of these things.

[18:08]  Boston Hutchinson: Bye all.

[18:08]  Boston Hutchinson is Offline

[18:09]  Rain Ninetails: bye

[18:09]  You: Bye, Rain

 

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