Society and Information Technology in Second Life

Wednesdays, August 29 - December 12 , 2007, 4-6, SLT/PT, 7-9 pm ET on Berkman island in Second Life

 Course homepage - http://socinfotech.pbwiki.com

 

Instructor: Scott MacLeod (not on Harvard's faculty) = Aphilo Aarde (in Second Life)

http://scottmacleod.com/papers.htm

 

 

 

Dec 12 07 Soc & Info Tech Class Transcription

 

[15:58]  You: Hi Boston

[15:58]  Boston Hutchinson: Hi Aphilo

[15:58]  You: Hi Rain

[15:58]  Boston Hutchinson: Hi Rain

[15:58]  Rain Ninetails: hi!

[15:59]  You: If only the weather were always as nice where we live, as here in world.

[15:59]  Rain Ninetails: :)

[15:59]  You: Hello Code

[16:00]  You: Has anyone experienced inclement weather in SL?

[16:00]  You: Besides difficulties getting in?

[16:00]  You: Hello Cindy.

[16:00]  Rain Ninetails: is lag a kind of weather?

[16:00]  Boston Hutchinson: I guess it snows in the Swiss sims (Zermatt?)

[16:00]  You: SL certainly contirbutes to redefining words.

[16:01]  You: Rain, where are you located physically, roughly?

[16:01]  Rain Ninetails: NYC

[16:01]  You: (We'll wait a little bit longer until more people arrive).

[16:01]  You: And you Cindy?

[16:01]  Cindy Ecksol: hey, aphilo, hows it going

[16:02]  You: Hi

[16:02]  Cindy Ecksol: bad weather by you?

[16:02]  You: I think Geda is in Brazil

[16:02]  You: And Andromeda is?

[16:02]  You: It's cold outside.

[16:03]  Geda Hax is Online

[16:03]  You: Well, in this last class I'd like to examine the transformation of state political institutions, in relation to digital technologies, and the information technology revolution.

[16:04]  You: And then perhaps explore in coversation the future of the internet

[16:05]  You: So, in politcal theory the concept of the state is central and often used to examine political institutions.

[16:05]  SamBivalent Spork is Offline

[16:05]  You: And here the state means a whole set of institutions of representation and decision making

[16:05]  You: including at the local, regional and national levels.

[16:06]  You: The state in this sense is broader than the government, in politcal theory.

[16:06]  You: And throughout history, the state has been the center of decision-making in societies.

[16:06]  You: What happens to people when the state formed?

[16:06]  You: The state could tax, paralyze, promote things, but there were few rights.

[16:07]  You: The French and the American revolutions developed a new state.

[16:07]  You: Hi Geda

[16:07]  Geda Hax: Hi all

[16:07]  Boston Hutchinson: Hi Geda

[16:07]  Geda Hax: Hi Boston

[16:07]  You: And this new state emerging from these revolutions

[16:08]  You: was ultimately elected by citizens, but not all citizens, not by all people

[16:08]  You: Women couldn' vote in the U.S. until 1919

[16:08]  You: And this political system is still restricted in terms of who can run for office, by money, etc.

[16:08]  Susi Manimal is Online

[16:09]  You: The nation-state emerged from a fight from different political powers to take control of people and territory, both in terms of internal warfare and external warfare

[16:09]  You: And 2 processes occurred

[16:09]  You: 1) the emergence of a nation state confined within boundaries

[16:10]  You: and 2) the development of the democratic state.

[16:10]  You: Democracy could be exercised by citizens

[16:10]  You: But citizens, before electing state representatives, are declared citizens.

[16:10]  You: Because democracy was set up within the confines of the nation-state,

[16:11]  You: two important things happened.

[16:11]  You: ( and they don't reflect a kind of nicely ordered system in people's minds)

[16:11]  You: The occurred in this order:

[16:11]  You: 1) Political decision making was nationally defined

[16:12]  You: and this determines sovereignty

[16:12]  You: and democracy is therefore exercised within the confines of the national state where sovereignty is exercised

[16:13]  You: and 2) the subject of democracy leads to the sovereignty of its citizens

[16:13]  You: 9Hi Sonja)

[16:13]  Sonja Strom: hi :)

[16:13]  You: Native Americans have a different way which doesn't count.

[16:13]  You: The notion of citizenship was not a natural

[16:14]  You: relationship in terms of history

[16:14]  SamBivalent Spork is Online

[16:14]  matrix05 Infinity is Offline

[16:14]  You: The French Revolution, in 1789, established the notion

[16:14]  You: that since people had to abandon traditions and family history

[16:14]  You: then religion had to be banned.

[16:15]  Boston Hutchinson: I read (I think it was in "1491") , that the U.S. system of government appears to have been based on a system from some of the native tribes as much as on European precedents.

[16:15]  You: And the language that developed would be the language of the state

[16:15]  You: 13% of the French nation spoke "French" at the time.

[16:16]  You: (I'm not surprised Boston that some traditions were taken from native peoples, but I think the main framers of the early American political process were the writers of the constitution

[16:16]  You: federal papers, et.

[16:16]  You: So the notion of citizenship is not natural

[16:17]  Boston Hutchinson: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1491:_New_Revelations_of_the_Americas_Before_Columbus

[16:17]  You: it was created forcefully in the context of sovereignty

[16:17]  You: (Thanks)

[16:17]  Boston Hutchinson: Mann's thessis was that the framers were extensively influenced by contacts with native governments

[16:17]  You: And citizenship became the basis for the state

[16:18]  Cindy Ecksol: yes, I think you're right, aphilo. "Subject of the king" is a different concept than "citizen"

[16:18]  You: Yes, and also, Boston, by interaction with France in the early 1800s, - Jefferson and Franklin

[16:18]  You: for example.

[16:19]  Boston Hutchinson: Yes

[16:19]  Cindy Ecksol: and think Boston is right too.

[16:19]  You: So, to summarive the moder e-state

[16:19]  Cindy Ecksol: very very interesting -- I hadn't thought about it in these terms before

[16:19]  You: has emerged in the last 3 centures on the basis of two things

[16:19]  You: 1) sovereign nation state territory

[16:20]  matrix05 Infinity is Online

[16:20]  You: And 2) a democratic state defined by citizens in a nation state on its own territory

[16:20]  You: (Hi Ploc)

[16:20]  Ralph Radius is Online

[16:20]  You: You're welcome to participate in this course - the wiki is here: http://socinfotech.pbwiki.com

[16:21]  You: And the democratic state devceloped in the west through colonialism and imitation.

[16:21]  You: Non democratic societies 1) affirmed sovereignty

[16:22]  You: and 2) developed along side non traditioanl states, by workers, e.g. the soviet state.

[16:22]  You: (Hi Ralph)

[16:23]  You: The Roman empire had a core of citizens and friendly groups

[16:23]  You: and it cretaed the legal foundation for citizens

[16:23]  You: represented by a sgement of the popultaion -

[16:23]  Susi Manimal is Online

[16:23]  Ralph Radius: Hi Aphilo. Hi Everybody. I'm lagged out.

[16:24]  You: In modern democracy, war and colonialism have happened regularly

[16:24]  You: Globalization means

[16:24]  Geda Hax: Hi Ralph

[16:24]  Boston Hutchinson: Hi Ralph

[16:25]  You: that capital, production, media, science and technology all flow around the world in ways which are difficult to control.

[16:25]  You: And in this context the traditional nation state becomes largely overwhelmed

[16:25]  Cindy Ecksol: Aphilo, do you think war/colonialism was kind of a hangover from the monarchy-oriented system? in other words, they didn't really know how a democracy was different so many things stayed the same?

[16:25]  You: The span of territory, and the livelihood of citizens become intertwined.

[16:26]  You: I think it was partly shaped by historical processes, and partly out of the interests of newly forming territories and nation states, Cindy. Good question.

[16:26]  Bruce Flyer is Online

[16:27]  You: So the state provides a way of making a living when technologies of the state expand beyond

[16:27]  Cindy Ecksol: hmmm, if the span of territory is connected to the livlihood of citizens, that implies that democracy and capitalism are intimately related

[16:27]  You: boundaries, and this often leads to conflict.

[16:27]  You: I think historically they have been entwined, Cindy

[16:27]  You: (Hi Bruce)

[16:27]  Bruce Flyer: hi

[16:28]  Boston Hutchinson: Hi Bruce

[16:28]  You: So when everything becomes global and this comes in contact with the nation state, problems arise

[16:28]  You: So globalization is like media taking over

[16:29]  You: The nation state becomes overwhelmed by Globalization, but with the permission of the state.

[16:29]  You: Why do states like globalization?

[16:29]  You: There are many different layers to answering this question empircally.

[16:30]  You: IN the 1990s, government privatized, deregulated,

[16:30]  You: etc.

[16:30]  You: Why?

[16:30]  You: In the interest of their economies >

[16:30]  You: And it's been a good thing in terms of the American economy.

[16:31]  Boston Hutchinson: Or are they bending to the will and power of corporations and the individuals who control them?

[16:31]  You: Clinton pursued globalization effectively, through the IMF ( international monetary fund), and the world bank

[16:31]  Zizi Preez is Online

[16:31]  You: In a way that is a form of the state is getting overwhelmed by globalization

[16:32]  You: Europe has its own form of globlaization

[16:32]  You: in the explosion of the nation-state

[16:32]  You: and the integration of the European Union

[16:32]  You: Why?

[16:32]  Annette Paster is Online

[16:32]  You: In comparison to the U.S. and Asian dynamism

[16:33]  Cindy Ecksol: yes, Boston, I think you're onto something: in a democracy money is power, and the ones who have money are the corporations, not the politicians.

[16:33]  You: Once the European Union became stronger, they pushed for Globalization.

[16:33]  Bruce Flyer: so the nation-state surrenders to the markets of the world in the face of the complexity of globalization?

[16:33]  You: Yes, and money plays a significant role in the politics of the US as a nationa state

[16:34]  Cindy Ecksol: I think maybe you're right, bruce. certainly seems to be true of the US

[16:34]  Boston Hutchinson: Corporations have always negotiated for tax breaks locally, and now perhaps globally

[16:34]  You: Yes, that is the idea. And sovereignty issues, rooted in history, change significantly.And stronger, emerging countries,

[16:34]  Bruce Flyer: usually when things get out of hand people instinctly try to regain control

[16:34]  You: Yes.

[16:35]  You: So stronger, emerging countries,

[16:35]  Bruce Flyer: resort to markets is an act of faith or desperation(?)

[16:35]  You: like China, India, and Brazil saw glboalization world wide and joined.

[16:36]  You: Globalization operates on a kind of kiss or kill logic, in part.

[16:36]  Bruce Flyer: is not joining, economic "death?"

[16:36]  Cindy Ecksol: globalization is a model that has been demonstrated to work: it produces a higher standard of living for countries who participate. no surprise that china et al hopped on the bandwagon

[16:36]  You: Japan globalized with otehrs, but closed themselves to imports.

[16:37]  You: If you don't join, become part of the network society, and if you don't have anything to export - "competitiveness" - you don't reap the benefits.

[16:37]  Cindy Ecksol: what I wonder is whether globalization is a zero sum game. will there come a point when no one else can join?

[16:37]  Bruce Flyer: does having primarily oil to export put one at a disadvantage in terms of intellectual development?

[16:38]  You: In the context of the Network Society, it's a join game, and if you don't you become part of the 3rd or 4th world.

[16:38]  Morrhys Graysmark is Online

[16:38]  You: So governments saw the value of joining

[16:38]  You: and sharing globalization with most, at teh expense of some, and they were right.

[16:39]  You: And once governments decided on globalization

[16:39]  You: then their trusted people

[16:40]  You: who know the global economy lik Robert Rubin and

[16:40]  You: Laura D'Andrea Tyson, the Berkeley economist

[16:41]  You: got the power

[16:41]  You: In Brazil an interesting problem occurred

[16:41]  You: Brazil and Cordosa fired in the late 1990s

[16:42]  You: the head of the national bank, and hired trusted and well trained economists

[16:42]  You: but the economy failed, due to bad speculations

[16:42]  You: So Brazil decided to hire a main Soros (george) speculator

[16:42]  You: who knew how to play the game

[16:43]  You: So the person who knows the game of the global economy talks to the president, which

[16:43]  You: maintains the link between government and globalization

[16:43]  You: 3) More personal rewards came about

[16:43]  You: In a dynamice environment, perks are around

[16:43]  Zizi Preez is Offline

[16:44]  You: And there are honest people, exceptions, like Brazil's Cordoza, who doesn't care about money.

[16:44]  You: Globalziation makes national policay less significant.

[16:44]  You: Governments are, in principle, overwhelmed

[16:44]  You: as sovereignties by globalizaiton

[16:45]  Bruce Flyer: i guess governments have "bounded rationality" just as do people

[16:45]  You: And here is the other part of a key development of the nation state in globalization - vis-a-vis Manuel Castells

[16:45]  You: IDENTITIES

[16:46]  You: Identities have emerged - ethic identitites

[16:46]  You: and counter cultural identities

[16:46]  Bruce Flyer: so globalization is promoting more "identification?"

[16:46]  You: People who organize themselves around identity tend to emphasize historical identity over political citizeship

[16:47]  You: So the idea iof political citizenship lessens in

[16:47]  Zizi Preez is Online

[16:47]  You: signficance relative to cultural identity

[16:47]  You: IN a way, Bruce, the tension that shapes many processes in

[16:48]  You: the Network Society, I want to argue, following Castells, is the Globalization and Identity play off of each other

[16:48]  You: re-writing the idea o the nation state, that emerged with the French and American Revolutions.

[16:49]  You: The Principle of citizenship based on the state only, regardless of langue, and religion is untenable.

[16:49]  You: In glboalization, you can't

[16:49]  Bruce Flyer: identity seems to fragment society as a whole

[16:49]  Cindy Ecksol: yes, I was thinking the same as bruce...

[16:49]  You: mix the state with other identities

[16:50]  You: Yes, in myriad ways, and as globalization proceeds, uniting disparate parts ot he globe

[16:50]  Bruce Flyer: it seems to be a way to reclaim the "local" but without national or locational grouding

[16:50]  Bruce Flyer: grounding

[16:50]  You: So people state to build identity to protect themsleves against glboalzation,

[16:51]  You: against the monopoly of teh idea of citizenship >

[16:51]  You: And people build on identity when people cannot build directly on the state.

[16:52]  Cindy Ecksol: is this one reason why the palestinians are failing to create a cohesive state? too much focus on identity as protection from globalization?

[16:52]  You: so France has a 12% Muslim minority which cultivates taht identiy, because they don't have access to the state, even though many are citizens

[16:52]  Bruce Flyer: identity can threaten the state from within

[16:52]  Daisyblue Hefferman is Offline

[16:52]  You: Perhaps

[16:52]  You: and fracture it, Bruce

[16:52]  Morrhys Graysmark is Offline

[16:52]  You: so becasue of the crisis of the traditional state

[16:52]  Bruce Flyer: globalization ends the metaphor of "melting pot?"

[16:53]  You: which cannot be sovereign because of globalization

[16:53]  You: an cannot represent citizens effectively,

[16:53]  Cindy Ecksol: no, I don't think it ends the melting pot metaphor. just changes its focus...

[16:53]  You: especially as identiteis, etc.

[16:53]  You: identites form

[16:54]  Daisyblue Hefferman is Online

[16:54]  You: The main point I think is the Globalizaiton, based on a real time, world wide network, gives rise to the Network Society, threatening the state

[16:54]  Boston Hutchinson: This seems to imply a collection of superimposed and overlapping networks: state, religion, ethnicity and others. When one dissolves and the others remain in place are there always problems (e.g.Yugoslavia)?

[16:55]  You: and identities react and resist

[16:55]  You: And Some get political autonomy - such as Scotland from England after 300-900 years.

[16:55]  Bruce Flyer: if individuals identify with different identifications as a result of overlap among networks, that promotes pluralism

[16:55]  You: In principle, everybody is talking about the crisis of the nation-state and of democracy

[16:56]  Cindy Ecksol: hee hee! talk to a scot about that sometime -- they never did unify with the brits :-)

[16:56]  You: beause democracy developed within the nation-state

[16:56]  Bruce Flyer: but when all the networks tend to align, that may spell trouble

[16:56]  Cindy Ecksol: ...or maybe it spells world peace....

[16:57]  You: So, in this context it's more important than ever to say no to globalization without represenation, like American Revolutionaries said no to taxation, without representation.

[16:57]  Cindy Ecksol: how do you see globalization as analagous to taxation?

[16:57]  You: So, before we have a break, let me look back at some of your comments.

[16:58]  You: Yes, Cindy :)- and yet westminster has been where policy and budgets were shaped

[16:58]  Bruce Flyer: Cindy, i doubt that world peace based upon an alignment of networks would require a unification that is unlikely and possibly not to be desired, although i certainly desire world peace

[16:59]  Bruce Flyer: that did not come out quite right. :-)

[16:59]  Bruce Flyer: i seek peace through diversity, not conformity

[16:59]  You: Globalization can involve foreign corporations significantly influencing economic aspects of people's lives, without represenattion, just as the British taxed the american colonists.

[17:00]  Cindy Ecksol: I was actually thinking that the alignment would be more of a dynamic balance that would result in economic ebb and flow as a substitute for military ebb and flow....

[17:00]  Bruce Flyer: i see

[17:00]  You: here he Network Society refers primarily to globalization of socioeconomic processes, the media

[17:01]  You: and even global crime,

[17:01]  Cindy Ecksol: hmmmm....I'm thinking particularly right now about the Chinese in Africa. Globalization there means benefits for the Chinese, but perhaps the benefits aren't so clear for the African nations -- they are just being exploited for resources

[17:01]  You: Exactly . . .

[17:02]  Zizi Preez is Offline

[17:02]  You: How to bring representation to people's and nations, where the economic system, is rewriting the power of the nation state, and those very nation states, have to play to be a part of this new economy, is very complicated.

[17:02]  Cindy Ecksol: ...that exploitation could certainly be analagous to a tax. I guess the real question is if you're an African nation, what would "representation" look like and how do they get it?

[17:03]  You: yes, Cindy... let's explore that after the break.

[17:03]  Sonja Strom: good question.

[17:03]  You: Let's come back to - What does representation mean?

[17:03]  You: See you in 5 minutes.

[17:04]  Sonja Strom: sorry everybody, but i need to go to RL.

[17:04]  Perry Proudhon is Offline

[17:04]  Cindy Ecksol: cy later

[17:04]  Sonja Strom: it has been a good discussion. bye.

[17:04]  Boston Hutchinson: Bye Sonja

[17:05]  Free Radar HUD v1.1 by Crystal Gadgets

[17:05]  Zizi Preez is Online

[17:07]  Cindy's prim: Hello, Cindy Ecksol

[17:07]  Cindy's prim: 3

[17:07]  SamBivalent Spork is Online

[17:07]  Object: Touched.

[17:11]  SamBivalent Spork is Offline

[17:12]  You: Hello

[17:12]  You: (And bye Sonja)

[17:12]  You: So, what does representation mean?

[17:12]  Zizi Preez is Offline

[17:12]  You: Theoretically, we are represented.

[17:13]  Bruce Flyer: in a way it is just the other side of "buy in"

[17:13]  Andromeda Mesmer is Online

[17:13]  You: And what is meant by this is that there are negotiations, there are debates, about issues of sovereingty, for citizens of various nations.

[17:13]  Bruce Flyer: the illusion or reality of inclusion

[17:14]  You: So that although globalization is occurring, some would argue that we are repesented in the context of globalization.

[17:14]  You: And I would counter, Bruce, that structural trends will make the nation-state, which seems to be losing ground to globalization, turn around.

[17:15]  You: Because nation-states are old

[17:15]  Ralph Radius is Offline

[17:15]  You: - they're a fall back.

[17:15]  You: So nation-states are reorganizing to gain trust

[17:15]  You: they are decentralizing

[17:15]  Cindy Ecksol: when we get stuck we just go back to what we know?

[17:15]  You: France, the U.K. and Mexico are de-centralizing.

[17:16]  Bruce Flyer: and the wars that server to prop up nation-states

[17:16]  Boston Hutchinson: The non-profits seem to be growing

[17:16]  You: The U.K. is devolving - i.e. Scotland and Wales

[17:16]  You: Yes, Bruce and Boston

[17:16]  You: And this devolution is restoring power to cetnral and regional governements.

[17:17]  You: Moreover, governments are emphasizing the role of nongovernmental organizations, as you mentioned, Boston

[17:17]  You: And NGOs are another layer.

[17:17]  You: So the Nation-State is extending itself toward the bottom.

[17:18]  Bruce Flyer: maybe we could go to the sandbox some evening and build a layered model of the global networked society

[17:18]  Cindy Ecksol: :-)

[17:18]  You: Governments or NGOs, who realized they couldn't control globalization, are creating institutions of shared sovereignty

[17:18]  You: :)

[17:18]  You: e.g. the European Union

[17:18]  You: - there is no sovereignty in the EU -

[17:18]  You: There are two layers, instead

[17:18]  Cindy Ecksol: oooh, but more than that -- the kyoto accords are WAY beyond the EU

[17:19]  You: A council of ministers or Europrean Council.

[17:19]  Cindy Ecksol: ...completely non-governmental, even "non-governing"

[17:19]  You: True. And this EU council meets

[17:19]  You: every 6 months, rotating the presidency.

[17:19]  You: A new country calls the meetings - every 6 months

[17:20]  You: So where is the power in the EU?

[17:20]  You: Not in the commission, but maybe in the council.

[17:20]  Cindy Ecksol: depends on what you mean by "power"

[17:20]  Boston Hutchinson: Is globalization of government (e.g. EU & Kyoto) a way of reasserting the power of government over corporations, a way of inflating government to keep up with the corporations?

[17:21]  You: So, now power is located globally in a network of NGOs, committes, Kyoto protocols, etc.

[17:21]  You: Hi Andromeda !)

[17:21]  You: Yes, Boston

[17:21]  Boston Hutchinson: Hi Andromeda

[17:21]  Andromeda Mesmer: Hi - RL problems made me late - sorry

[17:22]  You: And in the rest of the world - the 3rd and 4th worlds - things are less apparent in terms of integration.

[17:22]  You: Trade zones are forming, which are increasingly connected.

[17:22]  You: And nation states have converted themselves into a series of nodes called a network.

[17:23]  You: So I'd like to stop there looking at the way the nation state has changed due to globalizaiton

[17:23]  Bruce Flyer: it would be interesting to plot the nations of the world using social networking software

[17:24]  You: and begin a discussion about the future of the Internet, the Information Technology Revolution, and the Network Society.

[17:24]  You: Yes - Bruce, especially as the age ranges broaden to include people in their 50s and older . . . there are a lot of younger folks now in social networking software

[17:24]  You: To begin

[17:25]  Zizi Preez is Online

[17:25]  You: I'd like to come back to a central idea for this course

[17:26]  Jon Seattle is Offline

[17:26]  You: that characterizes a paradigm shift which is occurring.

[17:26]  You: And there are 5 parts to it -

[17:26]  Joe Petrel is Online

[17:26]  You: The first is that the information technology revolution is 1) about Information processing and generation

[17:26]  You: 2) it pervades and affects every aspect of socioeconomic life

[17:27]  You: 3) it's based on networking - of people, of companies, or technologies

[17:27]  You: 4) operates on the priniciple of flexibility

[17:27]  You: 5) it's based on technological convergence

[17:27]  You: in an integrating system

[17:27]  You: so that a) it's an open, not a closing system

[17:27]  You: and b) it's only bound by technological development

[17:28]  You: These 5 characteristics are very new, and specific to this information technology revolution

[17:28]  You: and they emerge out of a very unique and specific history

[17:28]  You: So these 5 aspects are what are unique about this information technology revolution, and what will continue to shape the future of the Internet

[17:29]  You: I think virtual worlds are one signficant expression of this

[17:29]  You: And that they may be a next very signficant phase, especially when they start to integrate, in an developing open system

[17:29]  You: But what else?

[17:30]  You: Via the web? How much time will people use to engage these technologies?

[17:30]  Zizi Preez is Offline

[17:30]  You: What role will identities play in shaping new innovations?

[17:30]  You: And how will the Digital Divide, which we haven't explored in too much in depth, play, especially concerning innovation?

[17:31]  You: Will the whole world (young folks), more or less, be online in a decade?

[17:31]  You: Where do you see the internet heading, and what questions seem signficant to you, in this regard

[17:31]  You: ?

[17:31]  Boston Hutchinson: I think the boomers (50+) will adopt social networking in the next 10 years

[17:32]  You: Especially in light of this paradigm shift?

[17:32]  You: But not sooner than that?

[17:32]  You: Boston?

[17:32]  Bruce Flyer: it seems to me unlikely that identities grounded in a virtual world can be as important as an identity grounded in history

[17:33]  You: That's interesting, Bruce, - so, for example, Eon Berkman and others - who started Harvard University here on Berkman Island - in Second Life

[17:33]  Bruce Flyer: could bening a "furry" have any real significance in RL?

[17:33]  Boston Hutchinson: when somebody asks me if they need to learn about a new technology, I usually answer that it will come to them where they are as soon as it's really ready. I think the virtual worlds and social networking will do that

[17:33]  You: his (Eon's) role here will be as signficant as Charlie Nesson in RL?

[17:33]  You: Perhaps in divergent ways, too.

[17:34]  Andromeda Mesmer: Bruce, I think that in some cases, virtual world identities can be more important - for examle I have seen heavy-duty game players from university who seem to "live" in the game -- and that was before computer games were good -- the Dungeons and Dragons type of games 10 years ago.

[17:34]  You: Yes, Boston - we seemed to take to e-mail - still the most used app - that way.

[17:34]  Boston Hutchinson: I think we will forget whether we're talking to the person or the avatar. It's not finished until that happens

[17:34]  Andromeda Mesmer: Virtual worlds make such games very realistic, so people are more liktely to identify with their characers in the game.

[17:35]  You: John Palfrey and Uri Gasser (?) draw the distinction between digital natives and digital immigrants

[17:35]  Bruce Flyer: but the character in a game is really nothing but a projection of the person behind it. it has no power to speak back

[17:35]  Andromeda Mesmer: I have to say though, I don't know how many people will identify as living aboard a starship or whatever ... but a significant minority will do so.

[17:36]  You: When 99% of 3 year olds have access to the Internet in the US since the late 1990s, a whole new generation emerges, whose medium is a very interactive message, to rephrase Marshall McLuhan, and becoming more so.

[17:36]  You: Yes . .. do you think that avatars will differntiate from humans, in SL, for example?

[17:37]  You: I wouldn't be surprised - how likely is that? a form of speciation? avataration? avatarization?

[17:37]  Cindy Ecksol: those young ones wil be the "digital natives" just as it wasn't until the second generation of Israelis grew up that there were "natives" there

[17:37]  Boston Hutchinson: I don't see that as the main trend. They haven't merged yet. that comes first

[17:37]  You: to coin a new word.

[17:37]  Andromeda Mesmer: On SF writer Charlie Stross' blog, there was a fascinating discussion about the use of the computer by different age groups -- increasingly a part of daily life -- where they talk to friends, and share everything -- they don't care about privacy any more.

[17:37]  You: Interesting.

[17:38]  Andromeda Mesmer: And there were comments about the identities online - that the younger people put on identifies, and then discard them -- or have several identifires.

[17:38]  Boston Hutchinson: Some things are generational, but others are adopted by everybody because they seem so natural

[17:38]  You: One of the ideas that Second Life Managment have played with is of SL being a place for wish fulfillment.

[17:38]  You: Yes, A - identities are very plastic

[17:38]  Cindy Ecksol: yes, my daughter puts things on her Facebook wall that seem like they ought ot be "private" to me

[17:39]  You: What would you like to see take shape?

[17:39]  Boston Hutchinson: Yes, Cindy, mine daughters too!

[17:39]  Cindy Ecksol: :-)

[17:39]  Zizi Preez is Online

[17:39]  You: IN the same sense that in SL you can 'realize' buildings and walk into them - it's ASTOUNDING -

[17:40]  You: what would you like to see, if you could envision it, which this medium of virtual worlds makes possible like no other in history?

[17:40]  Cindy Ecksol: I have been thinking that the cost of creating/learning/doing in SL is so low that it has the potential to allow the use of skills that are "too expensive" to use in RL

[17:40]  Boston Hutchinson: I want to see avatars be able to copy gesture and facial expression automatically

[17:40]  Cindy Ecksol: or maybe skills that are impractical to realize in RL

[17:40]  Andromeda Mesmer: Or rebuild yourself into anything -- I stick to mostly human -- but there are many other possibilities to explore.

[17:40]  You: In general, that's the case with digital technologies - that low cost - opens up vast horizions (see Benkler)

[17:41]  Andromeda Mesmer: Or things that might be too dangerous or scary, or expensive in RL - you can do them in SL -- parachuting, hang gliding --

[17:41]  You: Yes, Boston - perhaps our faces will become as animated as ours in RL

[17:41]  Andromeda Mesmer: Sitting on a shark while it is swimming.

[17:41]  You: That's possible, A

[17:41]  Cindy Ecksol: yes, the web has opened up vast vistas of opportunity for small, unique businesses that were impossible to realize before the web came around

[17:42]  You: And probably with increasing realism, over time

[17:42]  You: How about free money?

[17:42]  Boston Hutchinson: Imagine flying to L.A. in Google Earth, then renting an avatar robot and a car, dring to a friend's house and knocking on the door.

[17:42]  Cindy Ecksol: very socialist, don't you think?? :-)

[17:42]  You: I wonder if virtual reality might rewrite the 'laws' of economics . . . .

[17:42]  Andromeda Mesmer: Well, there is no more free money in SL -- but there was and still is for the older accounts, I understand.

[17:43]  You: Benkler's thesis - nonmarket information production - is a basis for the beginning of such an argument.

[17:43]  Cindy Ecksol: the web has already done so to a certain extent. one example: ebay has created markets that hardly existed beforehand

[17:43]  You: Yes . . . the web has created and will continue to create markets, probably remarkably so . . .

[17:43]  Andromeda Mesmer: Aphilo - please explain "nonmarket information production" - example -- like Linux??

[17:44]  Cindy Ecksol: ....and I'll add to that thought that those markets are all "network" not hierarchical....

[17:44]  Bruce Flyer: can avatars somehow be projected into the real world?

[17:44]  You: I wonder if we might learn how to shape qualities - neural processes - of loving bliss, in world, if desired, and valued . . . a very different kind of experience, - the same kind as when one listens to mozart's arias . . .

[17:44]  Cindy Ecksol: Bruce, did you read about the musician who's wildlly popular on SL, but completely uknown in RL?

[17:44]  You: Benkler's thesis is that very low cost computing

[17:45]  Bruce Flyer: no, Cindy

[17:45]  You: has created nonmarket information production - in contrast to

[17:45]  Boston Hutchinson: http://www.irobot.com/sp.cfm?pageid=338

[17:45]  Boston Hutchinson: It's not much, Bruce, but it's a start.

[17:46]  You: newsprint, tv, and radio, which have all been signficantly affected by market processes, and advertizing over the, say, past 150 years.

[17:46]  You: Yes, Cindy. . .

[17:46]  Boston Hutchinson: A friend of mine is thinking or using it to get to the 2nd floor of her office, which is unaccessible with her wheelchair

[17:46]  Cindy Ecksol: Frogg Marlowe: http://www.mtv.com/overdrive/?id=1545799&vid=119658

[17:46]  You: Yes, Bruce - somehow holographically begin to interact with avatars in real life - that would be interesting.

[17:47]  You: Will the future of the Internet advantage the disadvantaged around the world (see Rosling's statistics video)?

[17:47]  You: http://www.benkler.org/wealth_of_networks/index.php/Download_PDFs_of_the_book

[17:48]  Andromeda Mesmer: Oh - that is coming - no question I think -- holographs of avatars and of real people ...

[17:48]  You decline 3d  wereld Heny  Icarus (209, 176, 315) from A group member named Jenn Hienrichs.

[17:48]  Patrio Graysmark is Online

[17:48]  Cindy Ecksol: infrastructure is key: if the infrastructure develops in third world countries then it will be used and benefit everyone

[17:48]  You: So might we be able to create modes of loving bliss, neurally - through IT, and virtual worlds, as they and the internet develop?

[17:49]  You: Yes, Cindy, and the Internet is first and foremost a distributed network, which is quite inexpensive to install.

[17:49]  Cindy Ecksol: hmmmmm, I'm thinking that infrastructure is key to that corporate economici development we were talking about earlier, so as that "exploitation" continues, it sows the seeds of its own demise/restructuring

[17:49]  You: And it's almost infinitely extensible.

[17:49]  Andromeda Mesmer: I don't know who is thinking of things made in SL being brought out of SL -- say, manufactured -- like maybe some of the jewellry -- but there are now 3D machines that make copies in plastic, the way Xerox machines used to make 2D pictures.

[17:50]  You: And the one laptop per child may contribute to that expansion signficantly

[17:50]  You: Yes, A, - speaking of which

[17:50]  You: Neil Gershenfeld of the MIT Media Lab

[17:50]  Cindy Ecksol: there's already been an architectural firm that used SL to model a real proposal as a test.....

[17:50]  You: envisions a number of things in the future

[17:51]  You: 1) internet ) - where more and more objects in our lives have internet protocol addresses (IP)

[17:51]  You: and 'talk' to one another

[17:51]  You: 2) code which writes code

[17:51]  Cindy Ecksol: yes, those 3d machines are primarily a modeling tool right now, but may be more sophisticated in the future. Or someone may invent the star trek "replicator" :-)

[17:51]  You: so that humans are taken out of the loop

[17:52]  You: And tools which fabricate tools of our envisioning.

[17:52]  You: Gershenfeld is also a very compelling speaker

[17:52]  Boston Hutchinson: There is a replcator project associated with the Media LAb.

[17:52]  Cindy Ecksol: "code which writes code" is an old idea -- cf Heinlein, "The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress"

[17:53]  You: Library of Congress. 2004 - 2005. The Digital Future. C-Span.

[17:53]  Andromeda Mesmer: :)

[17:53]  Cindy Ecksol: which, I might add, is another look at a society based on information technology :-)

[17:53]  You: http://www.c-span.org/congress/digitalfuture.asp

[17:53]  Rain Ninetails: I would like to see Kismet here .. also from MIT ML, Braezael ? I think

[17:53]  You: Yes, Cindy

[17:53]  Boston Hutchinson: The idea is to make anything anywhere. They've installed labs in rural places and can make things like bicycles and simple electronics from almost-raw materials

[17:54]  Cindy Ecksol: ok, now THAT is very cool....

[17:54]  You: Check out allof the above videos at teh Library of Congress site

[17:54]  You: but especially the last one

[17:54]  Andromeda Mesmer: Dean Ing and others have written about small boxes that take in raw materials and make practically anything you want.

[17:54]  You: where Gershenfeld shows just how the project that Boston's talking about will work.

[17:55]  You: Yes, A

[17:55]  You: So the future of the Internet will include a very far reaching, and somewhat chaotic

[17:55]  You: conversation about many of these innovations, as well as idea exchanges about everything!

[17:56]  You: And it's infrastructure will probably allow for more and more sophisticated forms of file sharing,

[17:56]  You: - to the extent that we'll be able to send and receive 'live' avatars?

[17:56]  Cindy Ecksol: aphilo, how about "government" in SL? I've just recently been looking into the history of the CDS (short, but dynamic).

[17:56]  You: Who knows?

[17:57]  Bruce Flyer: i have been wondering why a city would want a presence in SL

[17:57]  You: If interested in government in SL, stay in touch with Rebecca Nesson, the doyenne of Berkman Island, who has been teaching on Monday evenings this fall,

[17:57]  Andromeda Mesmer: Cindy - probably we will not see ONE government, but many different kinds -- people might live under the government and the laws tht they want.

[17:57]  You: and Charlie Nesson.

[17:57]  You: Also stay in touch with questions about Metaverse constitutions

[17:57]  Bruce Flyer: avatars standing in line for benefits is not better than standing in a real line

[17:57]  Cindy Ecksol: yes, A, I think you're right. but what intrigues me is the "speed" that governmental processes are taking on in SL

[17:58]  You: Antonio Bonanno is working on some of these questions.

[17:58]  Cindy Ecksol: what took many years in the 1770's happens in six months or less in SL

[17:58]  You: But avatars don't eat :)

[17:58]  Cindy Ecksol: yeah, we were talking about that the other night in Rebecca's class

[17:59]  Andromeda Mesmer: Cindy - lots of processes in SL move with lightning speed -- San Francisco city disappeared overnight, a palm beach property lasted one week, marriages -- I am told -- last an average of 3 months, and if they last 6 months that is like 25 years in RL.

[17:59]  You: The distributed network aspect of the Internet, the value of innovation, and the Hacker Ethic may well keep the Internet fairly free, although that remains to be seen.

[17:59]  You: And in the digital age, A!

[18:00]  Cindy Ecksol: yes, exactly, A. what I'm wondering is what the implications of that speed might be especially wrt development of governements of various types

[18:00]  You: Faster synergies of information technologies, and incomparable relative to other industrail reovlutions, let alone technological developments throughout evolutionary history

[18:00]  Bruce Flyer: if we cannot include children on the adult grid, perhaps we could have pets here

[18:00]  Cindy Ecksol: :-)

[18:01]  You: fall back to the Nation-state, as globalization continues, reconstituting identities, Cindy, I think.

[18:01]  Cindy Ecksol: hmmmm...I don't think I agree with that Aphilo

[18:01]  Andromeda Mesmer: There are A.I. fish in a pond at one of the New Citizens places, and there are pretty good cats as well. The babies too -- an interesting animation idea.

[18:01]  You: But children are the future of the Internet - they take to it like fish in water - and on an unprecedented scale.

[18:02]  You: And absorb and incorporate innovations

[18:02]  Boston Hutchinson: I think global government will ultimately be necessary to prevent war and to minimize economic exploitation

[18:02]  You: The One Laptop Per Child is very chidren oriented.

[18:02]  Cindy Ecksol: going back to the very beginning of your talk tonight, citizenship in CDS for example is based on owning land and taking responsibility. no cultural identity is involved

[18:02]  You: Which, C?

[18:02]  You: So the U.N. in a next 'phase', Boston?

[18:03]  You: CDS?

[18:03]  Boston Hutchinson: eventually, don't you think?

[18:03]  You: But not in the U.S. and not emerging out of the French and American Revolutions

[18:03]  Cindy Ecksol: ....that speed will cause a reversion to nation states, reconstituting identies, etc.

[18:03]  You: even if identity questions, recast citizenship questions.

[18:03]  Boston Hutchinson: a natural progression from feudalism through nation states toward global government

[18:04]  You: Or new forms of bio-regionalism 200 years in the future?  (My guess is that cities will continue 200, 400, 7000 years, etc. into the future).

[18:04]  Boston Hutchinson: But I'm not in my area of expertise here!

[18:04]  Cindy Ecksol: Confederation of Democratic Simulators -- Neufreistadt/Neu Colonia/Alpine Meadow

[18:05]  You: all connected by an internet that only some use, as a kind of library - this is the vision of Ursula K. LeGuin in her ethnographic science fiction "Always Coming Home."

[18:05]  Cindy Ecksol: bio-regioualism?????

[18:05]  You: Thanks . . .

[18:05]  You: So much of globalization is predicated by world wide transport and distribution

[18:05]  Bruce Flyer: next week?

[18:06]  You: It's very difficult to predict the future . . .

[18:06]  You: So, this is the last class for this semester.

[18:06]  Andromeda Mesmer: I am sorry it is the last class :(

[18:06]  You: I'll keep in touch about next semester through the group list

[18:07]  Bruce Flyer: this is wonderful!

[18:07]  Cindy Ecksol: not sure I'm on that list - can I find it and join?

[18:07]  You: I'm very glad we came together to explore these ideas, and have thes conversations.

[18:07]  Bruce Flyer: no evals on surveymonkey? :-)

[18:07]  Andromeda Mesmer: LOL :)

[18:08]  Cindy Ecksol: ty

[18:08]  You: You should have an invitation, Cindy

[18:09]  Geda Hax: sorry guys , its 00:08 and I am still working in rl ... but tried to follow some parts ...

[18:09]  You: I sometimes wonder what education and learning can be like if it's ideal - in the sharing

[18:09]  You: of ideas

[18:09]  You: and SL helps facilitate that - as does Charlie Nesson's vision of learning.

[18:09]  Geda Hax is also sorry its the last class

[18:09]  Andromeda Mesmer: I like what one writer said about education -- a log with a teacher on one end, and a student on the other end.

[18:10]  You: Thanks for attending, Geda

[18:10]  Cindy Ecksol: well, as rebecca points out, this is a very different paradigm for "education" and potentially much more powerful than the old-fashioned classroom

[18:10]  Champler Snook is Offline

[18:10]  You: Yes, - in so many ways

[18:11]  Daisyblue Hefferman is Offline

[18:11]  You: So the future of the Internet may include more idea sharing here . . . .

[18:11]  Bruce Flyer: can we agree to meet here one Wed. in Jan 2008 now?

[18:11]  Andromeda Mesmer: I agree!!!

[18:12]  You: Some of us have an interest in the Croquet project - so keep in touch if you have some interest in that . . .

[18:12]  You: I do have more themes I'd like to explore vis-a-vis Soc and Info TEch -

[18:12]  You: we would probably have to meet not in this meeting area, but we could probably meet on Berkman Island

[18:13]  Daisyblue Hefferman is Online

[18:13]  You: But my schedule is still taking shape for January

[18:13]  Boston Hutchinson: Maybe we'll meet in Croquet, but then we'd all be identical white rabbits!

[18:13]  Bruce Flyer: Princeton looks vacant

[18:13]  You: So I would help send announcements, if desired.

[18:13]  Diego Ibanez is Online

[18:13]  You: yes, Bruce . . .

[18:14]  You: So, Good Night, and thanks for participating.

[18:14]  You: Keep in touch in-world and into the future.

[18:14]  Boston Hutchinson: Thanks for class. All of them!

[18:14]  You: You're welcome.

[18:15]  Andromeda Mesmer: And you have my email Aphilo ...

[18:15]  Boston Hutchinson: I hope we can continue and /or meet occasionally in some form.

[18:15]  Andromeda Mesmer: When are you going to post the notes for this class?

[18:15]  Whitelight Christiansen is Online

[18:15]  You: I'll post them soon.

[18:16]  Bruce Flyer: as my undergrads want to know, when will grades be posted?

[18:16]  You: Has anyone heard about other classes here in January?

[18:16]  Cindy Ecksol: there's a couple of classrooms in New Colonia and Neufriestadt that could be available

[18:16]  You: :)

[18:16]  You: Ok ... thanks for the info.

[18:16]  Bruce Flyer: good night everyone

[18:16]  Bruce Flyer is Offline

[18:16]  You: Good night.

[18:17]  Boston Hutchinson: Good night Bruce

[18:17]  Geda Hax: So Ap , thanks a lot for all classes

[18:17]  You: Yes, you're welcome

[18:18]  You: Let's continue to explore how the information technology revolution and the network society take shape into the future.

 

 

http://socinfotech.pbwiki.com