Society and Information Technology in Second Life

Wednesdays, January 9 - July 30, 2008, 4-6, SLT/PT, 7-9 pm ET

on Berkman island in Second Life - http://slurl.com/secondlife/Berkman/114/70/25

Course homepage - http://socinfotech.pbwiki.com

 

Instructor: Scott MacLeod (not on Harvard's faculty) = Aphilo Aarde (in Second Life)

http://scottmacleod.com/papers.htm

 

 

April 9 2008 Soc and Info Tech class transcript

 

 

[16:00]  Michele Mrigesh is Online

[16:00]  Spider Mycron is Online

[16:00]  You decline Clever Zebra HQ, Zebra HQ (119, 115, 23) from A group member named Jenn Hienrichs.

[16:00]  You: HI Boston!

[16:01]  You: Hi Xyryx

[16:01]  Boston Hutchinson: Hi Aphilo

[16:02]  Dnate Mars is Online

[16:02]  You: I've been thinking about Jonathan Zittrain's book "The Future of the Internet and How to Stop It"

[16:02]  You: He draws a distinction between generative and sterile technologies.

[16:02]  Boston Hutchinson: Haven't read it...

[16:02]  You: Hi Claryssa.

[16:02]  Claryssa Schmidt: hi

[16:03]  Boston Hutchinson: Hi Claryssa

[16:03]  Claryssa Schmidt: hi Boston

[16:03]  You: The Internet he wants to stop

[16:04]  You: is the one that emerges from sterile technologies, ones where innovations don't occur very easily, or don't emerge due to the technologies themselves

[16:05]  You: and the market can help and hinder vis-a-vis these technologies

[16:05]  You: but he offers a slightly pessimistic view of the Internet

[16:05]  xyryx Simca: What is it about the future Internet that he wants to stop from occurring?

[16:06]  xyryx Simca: He favors halting nnovations?

[16:06]  You: sterile innovation-based web, because sterile technologies lead to less engagement from the public, and far fewer convergences that are far-reaching in their implications.

[16:07]  You: He's making a case for the importance of innovation

[16:07]  xyryx Simca: Now I am confused.

[16:07]  You: and suggesting ways in which this might happen - he suggests, for example, a kind of manhattan-like project

[16:08]  xyryx Simca: So, he favors innovation and is opposed to sterile technologies?

[16:08]  You: where innovation is, in a way, mandated, by a government body, or some other body, but this

[16:08]  You: tends not to draw on the processes of innovation that made the web so innovative inthe first place,

[16:09]  You: because the manhattan project was mandated by a centralized authority.

[16:09]  You: So, the Internet he's trying to stop is one where

[16:09]  You: market forces limit innovation, and take away from the far reaching potential of the Internet to change our lives in unofrseen ways

[16:09]  xyryx Simca: But the internet came about due to government needs that had explosive widespread applications

[16:10]  You: We've been looking at that in this class xyryx

[16:10]  xyryx Simca: for example??

[16:10]  You: and I think Jonathan in a way 'reifies' generative technologies

[16:10]  xyryx Simca: He thinks the internet will have a stifling affect upon innovation? How so? I fail to see his point.

[16:11]  You: apart from the innovators that made them.

[16:11]  You: Adn that, without reifying culture, specific cultures gave rise to this real time world wide distributed network.

[16:12]  xyryx Simca: So, he thinks that the evolution of the internet was innovative to this point, but now turns the corner and becomes a sterilizer of innovative ideas and realizations?

[16:13]  You: [Yes, potentially.] So , to answer your question, xyryx, a technomeritocratic cutlure was perhaps most important in the development of the web, then hackers, then a communitarian ethos, then and decades after these other an entrepreneurial culture

[16:13]  SamBivalent Spork is Offline

[16:13]  You: So, I'm curious how each of you think the internet will continue to be innovative -

[16:15]  You: how will this infiintely extensible worldwide network shape continue to generate new and far-reaching innovations or their potential, even as end user contributions may need to be more sophisticated than they were in the 1970s and 80s

[16:15]  You: Tim Berners-Lee, for example, singlehandedly wrote http and html, posted them to a BBS and graduate students disseminated it

[16:16]  xyryx Simca: Mimics the evolution of biology..increasing complexity..increasing information transfer..fluid organizational structures..tissues...reconfigurations..cropping of dead matter..or pruning..backup organs/plans..

[16:16]  You: so he, singelhandedly, created the WWW, as one exmaple of far reaching innovation.

[16:17]  Boston Hutchinson: I think it's hard to produce significant innovations without substantial resources now that the Internet is more mature.

[16:17]  You: Thoughts before we carry on with the Internet, and the new world disorder, and questions about war and peace

[16:17]  Boston Hutchinson: Interesting analogy

[16:18]  You: Jonathan uses the metaphor, xyryx, of the ecology of the internet

[16:18]  You: Yes, Boston,

[16:18]  You: In a way he's touching on social science of technology questions.

[16:19]  Boston Hutchinson: I think there are forces trying to add value through innovation, and other forces trying to capture value that's already there.

[16:19]  You: and I think that, vis a vis Castells, that these processes don't necessarily

[16:19]  You: parallel nature, but that rather they emerge somewhat serendipitously

[16:20]  You: The internet has been a kind of series of accidents

[16:20]  You: of synergies

[16:20]  xyryx Simca: seems that for every convergence there is at least one divergence..a stable system of change, perhaps.

[16:21]  You: where someone or some group innovate and this is adopted and added to.

[16:21]  DJWeyayman Howlett is Offline

[16:21]  You: So, I think the relationship between individual and society is perhaps a more fruitful one

[16:22]  You: in which to begin to think about the future of the Internet.

[16:22]  xyryx Simca: cooperative competition, coercive. fruitful??

[16:22]  You: and that a comparison with previous industrial revolutions also as synergistic processes, richly informative

[16:23]  You: While the browser wars in the mid 1990s that led to free browsers

[16:23]  Connecting to in-world Voice Chat...

[16:24]  You: between netscape and Microsoft, and preceded by mosaic, with its graphical user interface that was revolutionary

[16:24]  Disconnected from in-world Voice Chat

[16:24]  You: and led to the popularization of the web

[16:24]  You: is a competitition example,

[16:24]  You: I think the hacker ethos is a far reaching explanation

[16:25]  Arawn Spitteler is Online

[16:25]  You: for what gave rise to the Intenret - and this included passion for making free software, creativity, a joy at doing it, and

[16:25]  Persis Trilling is Online

[16:25]  You: hard work

[16:26]  You: a very different ethos than what led to the emergence of capitalism vis-a-vis the Protestant ethic - which Himanen's book "The Hacker Ethos" is responding to

[16:27]  You: But so much has been free with hackers making these technologies for free

[16:27]  xyryx Simca: You think there was a PASSION for making FREE software? I think there was the inherent challenge in the process and the driving force to see it through to completion

[16:27]  You: for prestige and so that eventually they get back

[16:28]  xyryx Simca: similar to the content creators here as opposed to those who elect not to create content.

[16:28]  You: Hackers are an interesting group of programmers

[16:28]  You: and yes, absolutely

[16:28]  You: And the Berkman Center for Internet and Society Jochai Benkler's

[16:29]  xyryx Simca: It is like a runner on a self-induced endorphin high. self-medication

[16:29]  You: "The Wealth of Networks: How social production transforms markets and freedom"

[16:29]  You: is an exploration of what occurred due to this

[16:30]  Curious George is Offline

[16:30]  You: (This book is available on the web"

[16:30]  You: he suggests that a new sphere of production, apart from economics, emerged from this interesting time.

[16:30]  xyryx Simca: perhaps it is just the evolution of economics

[16:31]  You: ) but how and where the hacker ethos will extend into the future is an interesting question

[16:32]  You: Hackers emerged from counterculture, significantly, and whole new groups of programmers are learning in a different milieu

[16:32]  You: but the contribution of hackers is very significant, and a reading of which may be used usefuly profitably for thinking about the future.

[16:33]  You: .... of the Internet

[16:33]  You: Other thoughts about generating rich new innovations vis-a-vis the Internet?

[16:34]  Luna Bliss is Offline

[16:34]  You: I think Jonathan Zittrain's contribution is rich because

[16:34]  You: if technologies themselves become generative, jsut as Hacking culture was and is, then

[16:34]  xyryx Simca: Often said that SL is the retirement home for many of these _aging_ programmers/coders/hackers

[16:34]  You: far-reaching innovation will continue.

[16:34]  You: Hello Sativa

[16:35]  Sativa Villa: hello

[16:35]  You: :) - perhaps ... but

[16:35]  You: there's a lot of innovation potential here, too

[16:35]  You: which may emerge simply from conversation, as well as programming.

[16:35]  xyryx Simca: the mindset hasn't changed, nor perhaps the motivations

[16:36]  You: Make this world real, make avatars like us, add facebook aspects . . . for example.

[16:36]  You: Or create avatar agency, by using type caht to inform a database of avatar conversation

[16:36]  xyryx Simca: Disruptive Technologies is the usual buzzword that initiates the search for expanding potentials..growth

[16:37]  You: such that when synthesized and programmed with hologram avatars - still science fiction - they are imporssible to distinguish from

[16:37]  You: avatars with people typing through them

[16:37]  xyryx Simca: here..crowdsourcing..only need more input from the crowds?

[16:37]  xyryx Simca: =)

[16:38]  You: There are an infinite number of innvovation possibilities ahead

[16:38]  xyryx Simca: And which innovation possibility are YOU most interested in?

[16:39]  You: And we'll define the parameters for these as a society, and indivdiuals will disrupt these parameters :)

[16:39]  You: I'm interested in avatar agency . . .

[16:39]  xyryx Simca: and vice versa

[16:39]  You: And all of you?

[16:39]  You: :)

[16:39]  Diego Ibanez is Online

[16:40]  You: So let's start from where we stopped last week . . .

[16:40]  xyryx Simca: Read Torley Linden's dream about Second Half-Life? Connecting a live person's mental functioning with a cryonically stored person's brain?

[16:41]  You: in looking at the way military processes change, and how this distributed network affects military thinking

[16:41]  You: Thanks, xyryx

[16:42]  You: - looks very interesting - Boston has talked about implanting computers in our brains, and Kurzweil has a fairly successful record at prognostication

[16:42]  You: Here's the course's wiki - http://socinfotech.pbwiki.com

[16:43]  You: where we've addressed some of these issues

[16:43]  You: but in terms of possible changes in the military

[16:44]  xyryx Simca: The stated mission of the USAF today is "to deliver sovereign options for the defense of the United States of America and its global interests — to fly and fight in Air, Space, and Cyberspace".

[16:44]  You: become key

[16:44]  You: if small units, that have access to real time information, in many situations, from satellites, as well as intelligence and reconassaince

[16:45]  You: changing deeply rooted institutional practices of hierarchy, command and control, in the military

[16:45]  You: due to the internet and implications of IT,

[16:46]  You: new abilities are given to units on the ground

[16:46]  You: where, starting from where we left off last week, each unit has

[16:46]  You: to see the entire landscape

[16:47]  You: And each unit has to be connected to communication

[16:47]  Boston Hutchinson: The information flows in multiple directions: from the small units to central command, from command to unit, and from unit to unit, but the units still have a much narrower view than central command.

[16:47]  You: And it's the system that confines all these processes.

[16:47]  You: Yes, Boston, but it's the NETWORK that takes on dramatic new significance

[16:48]  You: Each group has specific goals, and have to retain autonomy entirely

[16:48]  You: which is a new structure militarily

[16:48]  Boston Hutchinson: But which way does the decision-making flow as a result? I would guess upstream to central command.

[16:49]  You: Every unit needs to have a laptop, containing all the information that headquarters has

[16:49]  Annette Paster is Offline

[16:49]  You: so a whole new set of processes emerges, that potentially privilege the units at the expense of headquarters

[16:50]  Boston Hutchinson: I don't think the units have the resources to process, view and analys=ze the info.

[16:50]  DJWeyayman Howlett is Online

[16:50]  You: What used to be simply a person to person communication process

[16:50]  Boston Hutchinson: central command may know what's behind the doors on the street. The unitsonly know which one to open.

[16:50]  You: now largely comes to rely on communication

[16:51]  You: So what emerges is that analysis and communication have become much more important than person to person

[16:51]  You: True, Boston, but the real time nature of networks, potentially gives

[16:52]  You: the network a determining role

[16:52]  You: So units are becoming project oriented - you have to blow up this - do it anyway you can - instead of headquarters telling them how

[16:52]  Annette Paster is Online

[16:53]  xyryx Simca: Do you have any military credentials?

[16:53]  You: Q. Is there a lag effect of the military approptriating these ideas?

[16:53]  Boston Hutchinson: No, xyryx.

[16:53]  You: The military relies on a sophisticated network of consultants and think tanks,

[16:54]  You: so these developments lead to a new significance for consultants, as well.

[16:54]  You: The real problem for the military is how to implement these ideas w/o creating a

[16:54]  You: "window of vulnerability"

[16:55]  You: unlike what might occur in business

[16:55]  You: What planners are telling them is that terrorist are poised.

[16:55]  You: All this tradition is embedded.

[16:55]  You: And the miilitary is moving fast to accomodate these changes, in the marine corp, especially.

[16:55]  Sonja Strom is Online

[16:56]  You: Q. How easy is it to integrate with other countries?

[16:56]  You: Nato is being organized along some of these lines.

[16:56]  You: they do not have the same transportation systems or satellites

[16:57]  You: After 1989, - the end of the eastern block and the west mentality / logic

[16:57]  Sativa Villa: wow

[16:57]  You: some of this change.

[16:57]  You: Similarly, the end of the cold war led to some similar changes

[16:58]  You: So in terms of logic, peaceful coexistence doctrines and balance of terror doctrines, are all past.

[16:58]  You: And under such conditions as IT, the old strategy is finished.

[16:59]  You: So, before we take a break, are there observations or questions we might respond to?

[17:00]  Perry Proudhon is Offline

[17:00]  You: So, let's take a break, and come back in 10 minutes.

[17:01]  You: And continue from there.

[17:01]  You: Xyryx

[17:01]  You: Thanks for your questions

 

 

 

 

[17:10]  You: Hi All

[17:10]  Boston Hutchinson: Hi

[17:10]  You: questions, before we begin again?

[17:11]  You: I've posted the transcript so far - http://socinfotech.pbwiki.com/April-9-2008-Soc-and-Info-Tech-class-transcript

[17:11]  You: I'd like to move on to questions of GEOPOLITICS next, starting a new topic.

[17:12]  You: And I'd like to raise a few main questions

[17:12]  You: The first has to do with FUNDAMENTALISM

[17:13]  You: The rise of fundamentalist movements - religions, nationalist movemetns, and ethnic movements

[17:13]  You: which are either empowered in one country i.e. the Taliban

[17:14]  You: or they have enought resoruces to build a terrorist network

[17:14]  You: comes from the logic of inclusion and exclusion

[17:14]  You: where alternative values are not subsumed

[17:15]  You: into a specific movement's own values

[17:15]  You: "exclusion of excluders by the excluded"

[17:15]  You: where "You say money, and I say God"

[17:16]  You: is perhaps one of the most signifcant problems today.

[17:16]  Gareth Otsuka is Offline

[17:16]  You: Cosmopolitcanism doesn't exsit in this circumstances

[17:16]  You: but territorialism is central.

[17:16]  You: In the extreme breach of opposition, there are people ready to die for you

[17:17]  ThePrincess Parisi is Online

[17:17]  You: and these are almost always desparate and radical on the fringe.

[17:17]  You: From the fundamentalist network, a number of types of threats can emerge

[17:17]  You: - targetting terrorist operations are possible

[17:17]  You: and constant surveillance becomes part of this sceanrio

[17:18]  You: And this has the biggest consequence on our lifewtyle

[17:18]  You: based on the construction of a system of surveillance throughout our lives

[17:19]  You: And what emerges is a quasi-poice system to protect the planet

[17:19]  You: where surveillance is a possibility

[17:20]  You: Clinton took a personal concern in these issues

[17:20]  You: and triggered a whole program of thinking

[17:20]  You: How does one control biological warfare, for example?

[17:21]  You: or the criminal economy, now global?

[17:21]  You: ...when it's linked to a system of groups that realy on drugs, for example

[17:21]  You: and where drug traffickers are linked to and protected by a high level of violence and violent units.

[17:22]  You: The Mexican president's assassination, some years ago, may have been due to drug traffic cartels?

[17:22]  You: One example of drug traffic banks -

[17:23]  You: In 1990, Colombia tried to implement extradition of drug traffickers

[17:23]  You: who then killed 100s of officials in Colombia - in a vicious 3 years

[17:23]  You: These drug traffickers blew up army and police headquarters,

[17:24]  You: and for 3 years Colombia was completely broken by terrorism

[17:24]  You: The more governments will try to impose their authority, the more a new form of war emerged

[17:24]  You: And the size of the drug economy in the early 1990s was bigger than the high tech economy.

[17:25]  You: The 2nd question I'd like to address has to do with major GEOPOLITICAL CONFLICTS

[17:26]  You: These conflicts are all looming

[17:26]  You: 1. Africa

[17:27]  You: 2. One major potentially dangerous war between Pakistan and Inda - that could be locally nuclear

[17:27]  You: and linked mainly to nationalism - can have a parallel nationalist dynamic

[17:27]  You: 3. the conflict between Israel and Palestine - that is symmetrical and explosive

[17:28]  You: and all of this are driven by fundamentalist networks.

[17:28]  You: And oil is at risk for irch countries, in particular

[17:28]  You: Our entire economy works on this.

[17:29]  You: the emergence of the new power in China is another interesting example

[17:29]  You: Adn the data from such a conflict, is based on nationalism

[17:29]  You: The Chinese revolution had two main components -

[17:30]  You: and 2. Communism as an identity

[17:30]  You: 1. Nationals in the Chinese Communist party

[17:30]  You: And as China is trying to develop

[17:30]  You: there are huge social costs during this transition

[17:31]  You: where 300 million peasants have been expelled

[17:31]  You: and 2/3 of enterprises are uproductive

[17:31]  You: and where housing reforms were delayed, due to costs

[17:31]  You: and this transition still has not happened

[17:32]  You: As the government is not ready for democracy and will try to hold onto power.

[17:32]  You: So, nationalism is the only thing that can be used to unite the country

[17:32]  You: and NATIONALISM has overwhelming support among the Chinese youth

[17:33]  You: And on the other hand, the chinese government is not willing to get into the arms race

[17:33]  You: 1) to be strong enough not to be invaded

[17:34]  You: and 2 to protect land that is under direct or indirect control

[17:34]  You: (See UC Professor Hsing - "Making Capitalism in China - Oxford 1999)

[17:34]  Gwyneth Llewelyn is Offline

[17:35]  You: So by and large, China is protecting power in the EASt, but is unlikely to confront the West

[17:35]  Spider Mycron is Offline

[17:35]  You: However the emergence of Chinca will keep alive the Wsets spending 1/3/ of its budget

[17:35]  Gwyneth Llewelyn is Online

[17:35]  Persis Trilling is Offline

[17:35]  You: And for the U.S. give it some role of super power status

[17:35]  You: "If no one can callenge you, you are the bully"

[17:36]  You: For the Chinese, thes gives an excuse and opportunity to grow rich.

[17:36]  Bruce Flyer is Online

[17:36]  You: So these are key geopolitical risks in relation to FUNDAMENTALISM

[17:37]  Gwyneth Llewelyn is Offline

[17:37]  You: Q. How does money drive Chinese politics?

[17:37]  Bruce Flyer: hi everyone!

[17:37]  Boston Hutchinson: Hi Bruce!

[17:37]  You: Hi Bruce!

[17:38]  Claryssa Schmidt: hi Bruce

[17:38]  You: 1. In China, too, money drives politics

[17:39]  Gwyneth Llewelyn is Online

[17:39]  You: (We're talking about many diffents kinds of Fundamentalism in contradistinction to the Information TEchnology revolution)

[17:39]  You: (It's this tension that guides societal processes in many ways).

[17:39]  Diego Ibanez is Offline

[17:40]  You: So, 2. in China, money isn't regulated esp. in politics -

[17:40]  Breen Mathy is Online

[17:40]  Geda Hax is Online

[17:40]  You: Why?

[17:40]  You: all attempts at campaign reform have been voted down by Congress

[17:40]  You: Because those who have been elected have been elected by money in China.

[17:41]  You: On a comparative basis, in less democratic countries, corruption is direct

[17:41]  You: directly tied to officials or party leaders -

[17:41]  You: from personal contributions to political leaders

[17:41]  You: What haapens to European countreis where money is alittle more controlled?

[17:42]  You: In Europe,

[17:42]  You: commercails are banned during the political season

[17:42]  You: - and fudnign reltes to the number of votes you get

[17:42]  You: What analysts have shown

[17:43]  You: is that all public funds money isn't nearly close to what it takes to run campaigns

[17:43]  You: That there's a huge gap between these

[17:43]  You: And everything else has to come from somewhere >

[17:43]  CivilE Writer is Online

[17:43]  You: There's no legal financing -

[17:43]  DJWeyayman Howlett is Offline

[17:44]  You: Why isn't politics corrupt in Scandavia?

[17:44]  You: The best explanation social science can come upt with is that they are "nice people"

[17:44]  You: - so much for social science.

[17:44]  You: But there is an historical explanation

[17:45]  Bruce Flyer: now

[17:45]  Bruce Flyer: is it not much easier to "advertise" a political campaign now using the Internet?

[17:45]  You: Scandanavian countreis are homogenous, based on strong identity

[17:45]  You: ... it is but it suffers a kind of dilution effect....

[17:46]  You: and national identity still is KEY

[17:46]  Daisyblue Hefferman is Offline

[17:46]  You: and are trying not to open up

[17:46]  You: So Scandanavian countries are fairly closed

[17:47]  You: They are often sparsely populated in a large territory

[17:47]  Daisyblue Hefferman is Online

[17:47]  You: where relatively small town are the basis of the identity

[17:47]  You: Finalnd has a population which is 63% urban

[17:48]  You: And Norway hass a traditional Fjord society with different traditions

[17:48]  You: Sweden was rearticulated around the notion of a strong labor movement

[17:49]  You: that creted a party system

[17:49]  You: that they were articulate at influencing the public

[17:49]  You: depends very much on the relationship between unions, and corporations.

[17:50]  You: If you take opinion polls about trust in the government in Scandanavia, they're up . . .

[17:51]  You: So this whirlwind overview of identity

[17:51]  You decline Backintyme Bookstore from A group member named Raymond Frog.

[17:51]  You: focuses on its signficance in relation to

[17:51]  You: globalizing processes that IT gives rise to.

[17:52]  You: And before exploring more issues of identity next week, are there observations or questions?

[17:52]  You decline Backintyme Bookstore from A group member named Raymond Frog.

[17:52]  S2ur8viv5et9he Dayafter is Offline

[17:53]  You: Identity politics today in the US is quite different that a few decades ago .. .

[17:53]  S2ur8viv5et9he Dayafter is Online

[17:53]  Arawn Spitteler is Offline

[17:54]  You: How have you observed the Internet shaping new identities, if at all?

[17:54]  Bruce Flyer: i wonder if online social networking is going to change how people understand personal identity.

[17:54]  You: Yes, I think so

[17:55]  Bruce Flyer: if i am my network i need to get a Facebook page!

[17:55]  You: and perhaps develops waht emerged with previous industrial revolutions in new ways

[17:55]  CivilE Writer is Offline

[17:55]  Boston Hutchinson: There seems to be a continuing series of generation gaps, maybe not as big as in the 60's, but still significant.

[17:55]  DJWeyayman Howlett is Online

[17:56]  You: Where moving from place based associations and family prior to the industrial revolution

[17:56]  Bruce Flyer: Boston, do you mean my inability to type on a cellphone -- is that a gen gap?

[17:56]  You: mediated by electronic communcation

[17:56]  You: to more and more varieties of associations or an individuals choosing

[17:56]  You: :)

[17:56]  Boston Hutchinson: type on a cell phone? I can barely dial the numbers. :)

[17:57]  Bruce Flyer: LOL

[17:57]  You: Yes, I think the generation gap will become waves of generation overlap

[17:57]  You: as successive technologies come along...

[17:58]  You: So let's stop there

[17:58]  You: And next week, we'll carry on looking at some social and political implications of information technology

[17:58]  You: vis-a-vis freedom

[17:58]  Bruce Flyer: it is good to see you Claryssa

[17:59]  Claryssa Schmidt: :)

[17:59]  You: and the challenges that IT offers people, that we then will or won't engage.

[17:59]  Breen Mathy is Offline

[17:59]  You: Thanks for coming!

[17:59]  You: I'll post this transcript here - http://socinfotech.pbwiki.com/April-9-2008-Soc-and-Info-Tech-class-transcript

[17:59]  Boston Hutchinson: Thanks, Aphilo.

[17:59]  Claryssa Schmidt: thanks Aphilo

[17:59]  Bruce Flyer: sorry to always be late. see you all next week i hope

[17:59]  You: Great!

[17:59]  Bruce Flyer: bye all

[18:00]  Boston Hutchinson: Good to see you, bruce, even if only briefly.

[18:00]  Bruce Flyer: :-) 

[18:00]  Boston Hutchinson: I wonder where Andromeda is?

[18:00]  Boston Hutchinson: She never missed class.

[18:01]  Claryssa Schmidt is Offline

[18:01]  You: I haven't heard from her.

[18:02]  Boston Hutchinson: She seems to be online almost all the time--at least whenever I go into SL, which isn't often.

[18:02]  Boston Hutchinson: But she's offline now.

[18:03]  Boston Hutchinson: So, we're done with the military portion of the class? --whew. not my favorite.

[18:03]  You: Yes, we're done with looking at implications for the milatary

[18:03]  Persis Trilling is Online

[18:05]  Boston Hutchinson: Sociology covers a lot of disparate subjects. TEchnologists are more limited, or rather, we just see everything from the technical POV.

[18:06]  You: Yes, - sociology can also be very focused

[18:06]  You: but the overview that it offers, while necessarily selective

[18:06]  You: is fascinating vis-a-vis IT's influence .

[18:06]  Jon Seattle is Offline

[18:07]  You: and I draw a lot on Castells', and am very grateful to him, and find his analyses and how he's responded to criticism fascinating.

[18:07]  You: But I should leave this cafe that's already closed . . .

[18:08]  Boston Hutchinson: Yes, it is. I think we all suffer from a lack of the big picture. Technologists can't really predict what people will do with technology, and the social theorists don't seem to quite get the strengths and weaklnesses of the technology.

[18:08]  Boston Hutchinson: Oh. Well I'll see you next week.

[18:09]  You: Lots of changes ahead.

[18:09]  You: The sociology of IT and technologists view of IT make for an interesting articulation, but the big societal picture does offer fascinating knowledge that I'd like to refine, even over a lifetime! :)

[18:09]  You: See you next week :)

[18:09]  Boston Hutchinson: cul

[18:09]  Boston Hutchinson: That's for sure.