Society and Information Technology in Second Life
Wednesdays, January 9 - July 30, 2008, 4-6, SLT/PT, 7-9 pm ET
on Berkman island in Second Life - http://slurl.com/secondlife/Berkman/114/70/25
Course homepage - http://socinfotech.pbwiki.com
Instructor: Scott MacLeod (not on Harvard's faculty) = Aphilo Aarde (in Second Life)
http://scottmacleod.com/papers.htm
April 16 2008 Soc and Info Tech class transcript
[15:59] You: Hi Rain!
[15:59] You: Hi Ozzy
[15:59] Rain Ninetails: hi! :)
[16:00] Boston Hutchinson is Online
[16:00] You: Have any of you seen
[16:00] Connecting to in-world Voice Chat...
[16:00] Connected
[16:01] You: "The Future of the Interne," a series of talks by a Stanford professor Ramesh Johari?
[16:01] You: I've posted the first of 5 to the wiki - http://socinfotech.pbwiki.com
[16:01] You: Hello Jayne, Boston!
[16:01] Jayne Urqhart: hi there :)
[16:01] Boston Hutchinson: Hi everybody.
[16:01] Boston Hutchinson: Sorry I'm late!
[16:02] You: You're right on time
[16:02] Rain Ninetails: hee hee
[16:02] Claryssa Schmidt is Online
[16:03] You: videos by Ramesh Johari interesting
[16:03] You: I think you'll find the series of
[16:03] 01 Hifeng is Online
[16:03] You: I think you'l find the series of videos by Ramesh Johari interesting.
[16:04] Claryssa Schmidt: hi
[16:04] You: Hi Claryssa
[16:04] Boston Hutchinson: Hi Claryssa
[16:04] You: Besides the talks by Ramesh Johari, you might also find the book
[16:04] You: by Jonathan Zittrain on ""The Future of the Internet" interesting.
[16:05] You: He suggests that the future of the INternet
[16:05] You: to avoid being locked down
[16:06] You: involves millions of users continuing to innovate by making generative
[16:06] You: technologies
[16:06] You: So last week, we were examining some challenges from
[16:07] You: fundamentalism, andways in which identities continue to shape a
[16:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn is Offline
[16:07] You: series of orientations to the Internet
[16:08] You: And with the web, there are also very distinct regional and national appraoches to it.
[16:08] You: Having emerged in signficant ways in teh U.S.
[16:09] You: It remains remarakbly open
[16:09] You: but even in th U.S.
[16:09] You: concernsfor proprietary interests in information
[16:10] You: will threatenthe Internets opennes
[16:10] You: aand in other countries without the legacy of freedom of speech, the internet is much less open
[16:11] You: raise some concerns for the future of the Internet
[16:11] You: This vening, I'd like to recap some significant points from the course, and
[16:11] You: The fundamental thing is
[16:11] You: that information technology is extremely important
[16:11] You: but its future is undetermined
[16:12] You: in terms of the uses of the Internet for freedom, vis-aivs surveillance and police, for example
[16:12] You: in society
[16:13] You: The Internet amplies, deepens, and enhances wahtever we do in
[16:13] You: (I'm experiencing lag)
[16:13] You: And if we are skillful, the Internet will be very good ahead
[16:13] You: It concentrates everything
[16:13] Sonja Strom is Online
[16:14] You: and it's at teh heart of communication
[16:14] You: Talke the technology and use it
[16:14] You: In a way the Internet lies between
[16:14] You: the capital laws of exploitation
[16:14] You: and freedoms and rights
[16:14] You: We are in between
[16:15] You: What are the implications for society - power and ambiguity
[16:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn is Online
[16:15] You: There are a number of challenges ahead that I shall lay out
[16:16] You: The Internet
[16:16] You: The 1st challenge is in terms of freedom itself
[16:16] You: provides global and free communication
[16:17] You: that potentially reaches everyone
[16:17] You: But access can be overrode, controlled, biased and manipulated
[16:17] You: by ideological and politcal interests
[16:17] You: The challenge is for PEOPLE to accept the challenge to own it
[16:18] You: I'm agree with Manuel Castells in not trusting society or anyone with
[16:18] You: the future of the Internet
[16:18] You: We have created a communication tool
[16:18] Veeyawn Spoonhammer is Online
[16:18] You: And this can be privately created, and controlled by government
[16:19] You: Vis-a-vis the Internet, to imagine
[16:19] You: that you might not go to teh beach, the forest, etc. wthout asking for permission
[16:20] You: is a mentality I'd like to avoid in relation to the Internet
[16:20] You: That could happen here, as the Internet becomes appropriated by business
[16:20] You: . . . here in the U.S.
[16:21] You: In Europe , government has regulated business on the Internet
[16:21] You: which is a nice solution, as long as you can trust government
[16:21] You: It's not business vs. government in Europe.
[16:22] You: Just imagine you live in a nice democratic country
[16:22] You: like Austria
[16:22] You: what happens to the Internet, in this case?
[16:22] You: and you have a conservation government vs an ultra right government
[16:23] You: So the future of the Intenret is not about China, but it may be about Austria
[16:23] You: (Please ask, if you have any questions or observations)
[16:24] Gareth Otsuka is Offline
[16:24] You: The beatufy of the type chat in SL is that everybody can contribute to this class as they want
[16:24] You: (I will post this transcript to the class wiki -http://socinfotech.pbwiki.com
[16:24] Carabella Babii: Question
[16:24] You: So in the U.S. the first amendment does apply to the Internet, but it is new
[16:25] Dnate Mars is Offline
[16:25] You: issues are unfolding
[16:25] You: and questions of privitization
[16:25] You: Yes, Carabella?
[16:25] You: published by Yale
[16:26] You: Jonathan Zittrain is quite pessimistic in his "The Future of the Internet"
[16:26] You: He fears a lock down, as commercial interests on the Web grow
[16:26] You: So the first challenges is "Who controls the Internet?"
[16:26] Carabella Babii: I understand that regulation will ensure protection to business but how does it protect the private citizen? or am I incorrect in that observation or understanding
[16:26] You: meaning access.
[16:27] You: The first amendment protects teh citizen
[16:27] You: so anyone can post anything very easily in the U.S., and potentially around the world
[16:28] You: and the Internet has low barriers to access . . .
[16:28] You: once one has a computer
[16:28] You: (We'll look at the Digital Divide next week.
[16:28] You: In terms of who controls the Internet
[16:29] You: a key question is "under which controls can one participate?
[16:29] You: It dependsupon the controlling processes - by business, political ideologies, etc.
[16:29] You: The 2nd challenge is
[16:29] You: "Does everybody have access?"
[16:30] You: Exclusion from networks of information technology are an ongoing problem
[16:30] You: And more particuarly a challenge
[16:30] You: And we will look at teh Digital Divide next week.
[16:31] You: There are different forms of exlusion
[16:31] You: 1infrastructure
[16:31] You: 2 economic
[16:31] You: 3 bureaucratic
[16:31] You: 3 cultural / educational
[16:32] You: 5 the inability to influence content in networks
[16:32] You: The THIRD major challenge
[16:32] You: is societal
[16:32] You: In a society where information processing is essential
[16:32] You: it becomes important
[16:33] Carabella Babii: Question:
[16:33] You: to learn information processing skills
[16:33] You: for all of us to learn these
[16:33] You: Certain kinds of education
[16:33] You: can be digitally stored
[16:34] You: And about 95% of kids have access to computers in the U.S
[16:34] You: How you become able to use and apply
[16:34] You: this information
[16:34] You: requries not only good education
[16:34] You: But an education where people can think for and by themselves
[16:35] You: where people can think critically
[16:35] You: And this involves
[16:35] You: constant reprogramming
[16:36] You: in a world in which everything is
[16:36] You: cahnging
[16:36] You: that is in a relative world
[16:36] You: that is flexile
[16:36] You: So this requries a kind of personality
[16:37] You: flexible and secure
[16:37] You: that can adapt, but not breakdown
[16:37] Gwyneth Llewelyn is Offline
[16:37] You: So we need certain types of schools and teachers, and pedagogy
[16:37] You: which we don't have
[16:37] You: the issue is not computers which are flexible
[16:38] You: We have an extraordinary potential to shape a world based on ATHENIAN DEMOCRACY
[16:39] You: Athenian democracy involves a highly educated group
[16:39] You: of citizens with enough material
[16:39] You: well-being and with education, self-reflection, and a sophisticated society
[16:40] You: (But in Athenian Society around 2400 years ago, the majority were barbaric or slaves)
[16:40] You: you're not o.k.
[16:40] You: This is not to say that if you are not in the Internet
[16:40] Carabella Babii: but who would determine this and will this only be reflected in the US as dominant
[16:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn is Online
[16:40] You: But we are moving to a situation where a small minority are a highly educated elite
[16:41] You: are so important.
[16:41] You: Yes, Carabella - which is why efforts like the one laptop per child - the XO - MIT Negorponte's $100 dollar laptop
[16:42] You: And why organziations like the Berkman Center for Internet and Society
[16:42] You: which is helping to shape these socail processes, both legally and societally
[16:42] Carabella Babii: but how does that help a child when the parent is illerate in computers
[16:42] You: by emphasizing things like open source, and innovation are essential
[16:43] You: As I menitoned above teaching and pedagogy are as important
[16:44] You: The folwing is a fascinating video that debunks Third World myths
[16:44] You: by a Swedish professor Hans Rosling
[16:44] You: http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/92
[16:44] You: using statistics that are exciting to observe
[16:44] You: And here is information about One Laptop Per Child
[16:45] You: Which uses only free software
[16:45] You: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Laptop_per_Child
[16:45] Diego Ibanez is Online
[16:45] You: and is designed specifically for child ownership in the developing world
[16:45] Carabella Babii: hmm interesting, thank you
[16:45] You: But the digital divide is very signficant
[16:46] You: very
[16:46] You: So, education is highly erratic
[16:46] You: There's little education i the ghettoes
[16:46] You: How to get more sophisticated teachers there is a key question.
[16:47] You: You have to pay
[16:47] You: And recognize socially
[16:47] You: the value of teachers
[16:47] You: is immense
[16:48] You: The gap between the kind of education needed to make society work and what is really happening
[16:48] You: The 4th CHALLENGE
[16:48] You: The emergence of a networking
[16:48] You: business model
[16:48] You: and the individualization of work and employment
[16:48] You: which undermines what used to guide industrail relations
[16:49] You: i.e. the welfare state
[16:49] You: ie.collective bargaining agreements
[16:49] Diego Ibanez is Offline
[16:49] You: i.e. workers' rights
[16:49] You: All these institutions are being undermined by indiviudalization
[16:49] You: There's a growing percentage of people with no permanent contract
[16:49] You: They aren't guaranteed employment
[16:49] Cindy Ecksol is Online
[16:50] You: and a new form emerges - flexible employment
[16:50] You: If you look at many contracts
[16:50] You: look at the fine print
[16:50] You: "In case of a dispute between labor and mangement, you commit to arbitration"
[16:51] You: and this elminates enforced workers' rights
[16:51] You: empyment becomes a private matter and not a public one
[16:51] You: Once you accpet with your signature that you're not under laws protecting you, you a
[16:51] You: you are privatizing - and you have no more rights
[16:51] Cindy Ecksol is Offline
[16:52] You: The model for the network enterprise challenges these rights
[16:52] You: The model for the network enterpreise
[16:53] Cindy Ecksol is Online
[16:53] You: but it does include all the advantages
[16:53] You: productivity
[16:53] You: competetiveness
[16:53] You: personal choice
[16:53] You: dynamism
[16:53] You: and creativity
[16:53] You: The 5th challenge
[16:54] You: has to do with regulated markets and the global economy
[16:54] You: all of which have rules
[16:54] You: and all of which are covered by the authority of democractic states
[16:54] You: When this breaks down - i.e. in Russia -
[16:54] You: there aren't any rules, and what you have left are thugs.
[16:55] You: So the market s are not the contrary
[16:55] You: And the market needs rules and institutions
[16:55] You: Capital grows because there are rules
[16:55] You: The notion of the wild East
[16:56] You: which includes violence and appropriation
[16:56] You: is an interesting coutnerexample
[16:56] You: Capitalism may be harsh
[16:56] You: but it is not a system of theft.
[16:56] You: What happened with capitalism
[16:57] You: was that a system of market rules was created at a national level
[16:57] You: Now the economy and markets are global, and institutions are national
[16:57] You: So global financial markets are in essence possible to regulate
[16:58] Daisyblue Hefferman is Offline
[16:58] You: Political and economic measures are possible
[16:58] You: We don't always know if they'll work
[16:58] You: But we haven't tried.
[16:58] Dnate Mars is Online
[16:58] You: And we'll continue to try very little for a while
[16:59] You: Brazil in the years around the millenium change wanted regulation!
[16:59] You: So these challenges explain contradictions
[16:59] You: and it's a time of creativity
[16:59] You: and wealth creation
[17:00] You: And as this continues, most, regardless of economic prosperity,
[17:00] You: are SCARED due to rapid change
[17:01] Daisyblue Hefferman is Online
[17:01] You: They are scared of change, but also scared by the lack of ability to have any tool, or mecahism to influence change.
[17:01] You: So let's take a 10 minute break soon
[17:01] You: I more thatn welcome questions and observations
[17:02] You: See you at 12 past the hour
[17:02] You: wehn we return
[17:02] You: :)
[17:05] Michele Mrigesh is Offline
[17:07] Veeyawn Spoonhammer is Offline
[17:11] You: Observations?
[17:11] You: Are there questions?
[17:12] You: I've posted the transcript thus far, here - http://socinfotech.pbwiki.com/April-16-2008-Soc-and-Info-Tech-class-transcript
[17:12] You: Boston?
[17:12] You: Jayne?
[17:12] You: Claryssa?
[17:12] You: Knildrig?
[17:12] You: Others?
[17:12] You: Rain?
[17:12] Knildrig Aabye: yes
[17:12] Rain Ninetails: :)
[17:12] Boston Hutchinson: I wonder what effect virtual worlds are having on labor
[17:13] You: Yes Knildirg?
[17:13] You: Good question . . .
[17:13] You: I think VWs are still very new
[17:13] Knildrig Aabye: what do you think of twitter ?
[17:13] You: and their impact
[17:14] You: and most high tech firms are not unionized - Linden Lab which makes Second Life only has about 250 employees
[17:14] Knildrig Aabye: .
[17:15] You: And World of War Craft is probably similar.
[17:15] You: So inworld labor is probably even smaller
[17:16] Sonja Strom is Offline
[17:16] You: Twitter is another fascinating exmaple of a social networking tool . . .
[17:16] You: and an example of ongoing innovation
[17:16] Knildrig Aabye: i love twitter
[17:16] Boston Hutchinson: The economy inside SL and WoW is small now, but could become a significant part of the total economy, especially if RL services are rendered in SL, which should be possible for jobs like programming, website development, even some medical and legal...
[17:16] You: And it's convergences that emerge from such technological innovation that can
[17:17] You: lead to remarkable new developments
[17:17] You: Knildrig
[17:17] You: I thinkit's very cool, too.
[17:17] You: Yes, Boston, and while
[17:18] You: high tech jobs tend to pay very well.
[17:18] You: labor has played a very small role in the IT reovlution, due to individualization in society
[17:18] Knildrig Aabye: jason calacanis is twittering and u-streaming live making price draws to increase followers, i was amazed watching him
[17:18] You: And I agree that virtual worlds
[17:18] You: are fascinating and potentially explosive
[17:19] Knildrig Aabye: i like 1938media too :)
[17:19] You: because you will be able to do almost everyhing in world that you do in real life
[17:19] You: cool, knildrig
[17:19] You: when avatars start to become like us,
[17:19] You: when avatars become agents on their own
[17:19] You: when vws come to be exactly like real life
[17:20] You: when what we do in virtual worlds happens in real life and vice versa
[17:20] You: the world will be very different,
[17:20] You: and while many of these ideas are
[17:21] You: science fiction now, they all seem possible - but how soon - maybe very soon.
[17:21] You: Look at Second LIfe - the seeds for such are already here
[17:21] You: it's just convergences ahead, don't you think?
[17:22] You: "it's just a matter of ..."
[17:23] You: So, to return to what we've been talking about, most institutions are in deep crisis
[17:23] You: Robert Putnam at Harvard, talks about the practical emptiness of most labor unions.
[17:23] You: And governments havne't responded to people's problems
[17:23] You: Manuel Castells thinks
[17:24] You: ... so objectively,
[17:24] You: But people also think so
[17:24] You: And under such conditions, people are facing some insecurity
[17:25] You: of different kinds
[17:25] You: 1)
[17:25] You: ENVIRONMENTAL DEGRADATION
[17:26] You: a). through the ability of netowrks to scan the planet relentlessly to exploit resources in order to sell
[17:26] You: b) this accelerates economic growth and depletes resources
[17:26] You: We're not in a time of sustainable development
[17:27] You: where 50% are included as beneficiaries of this growth
[17:27] You: but 50% aren't
[17:27] You: It isn't possible to live as welive in hte U.S. globally.
[17:27] You: If you multiply the number of people today
[17:28] You: by the same levels of pollution looking ahead
[17:28] You: you destroy people but not the planet
[17:28] You: It doesn't mean we have to reduce our standard of living
[17:28] You: In order to include everybody in an advanced form of production and consumption
[17:29] You: we have to change, not grow
[17:29] You: We need 0% growth
[17:30] You: In the increasing consumption equation, with the current population growth projections, it's unsustainable
[17:30] You: And missle defense cannot control pollution in China
[17:30] You: There is another side of
[17:30] You: information technology
[17:31] You: that can lead to sustainable development
[17:31] You: We can now know due to information technology
[17:31] You: what is and isn't sustainable
[17:31] You: We can now define which kind of
[17:31] You: hybrid car is necessary
[17:32] You: at every level of production and consumption, for example.
[17:32] Geda Hax is Online
[17:32] You: Why not?
[17:32] You: IN this sense, information technology can save us
[17:32] You: The automobile industry has vested interests against this
[17:32] You: The mejaor interests - oil and power companies - have amortgage on the future.
[17:33] You: After the debacles of power loss in Californiaa around the turn of the millenium people
[17:33] You: in California are afraid of having no electricty
[17:34] You: This retractable drousing, by computers, however, can make a transformation of models of habitat
[17:34] You: If we identify which problems are soluable by information technology
[17:35] You: Information technology creates the possibility of sustainable development
[17:35] You: The transformation of the model of production and consumption vis-a-vis living is possible
[17:36] You: Knowing and inputting could provide tools that make possible sustainable development
[17:36] You: Things won't change unless however the enviornmental changes them
[17:36] You: environmental *movement
[17:36] You: Things never change without impetus from the outside
[17:37] You: -pressure is needed
[17:37] You: - and alternative models, which enlightened segments of elites might change.
[17:37] You: A storng envionrmental movement - an extraordinary movement -
[17:37] You: organized in and aournd the Internet
[17:38] You: can mobilize pressures and camapigns
[17:38] You: in business
[17:38] Michele Mrigesh is Online
[17:38] You: and politically
[17:38] You: 1) knowledge!
[17:38] You: So information technology offers
[17:38] You: and 2) a political tool!
[17:38] You: Today the greatest fears is
[17:39] You: a great fear - in polls about information technology
[17:39] You: the creation of a kind of "Frankenstein"
[17:40] You: of monsters that develop out of the abilities of science
[17:40] You: In Europe, you had mad cow diesease, and foot and mouth disease
[17:40] You: and these had to do with bad health controls and feeding practices.
[17:40] You: And this fits with ancestral fears of genetic maniplation
[17:41] You: The vision of 500,000 cows killed and burned in the night
[17:41] You: strikes fear in people, that you are
[17:41] You: -out of control
[17:41] You: - creating monsters
[17:41] You: And the notion of sensors everywhere
[17:42] You: i.e. visions that emerge out of the MIT media lab, and Cal Tech, for example - scare people
[17:42] You: And this fear is connected to genetic implants
[17:42] You: And all of this isn't science fiction
[17:42] You: Bil Joy, one of the creators of UNIX at UC Berkeley
[17:42] You: Bil Joy, one of the creators of UNIX at UC Berkeley
[17:43] You: - pbulshed an artile in "Wired" explaining
[17:43] You: the dangers of technology
[17:43] You: around the turn of the millenium
[17:43] You: It was critical of trends in robotics
[17:44] You: wher researchers have already produced self reproducing robots
[17:44] Abigail Tinkel is Offline
[17:45] You: All already
[17:45] You: self reproducing robots - which are programmed to have this capability
[17:45] You: scare peopel
[17:46] You: Here's Bill Joy's "the Future Doesn't Need Us"
[17:46] You: http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/8.04/joy_pr.html
[17:47] You: Some of the most telling things are nanotechnoloyg inside bodies
[17:47] You: Agents inside our bodies are doing nice things
[17:47] You: but are growing fear in the world
[17:47] You: - that we have unleashed a revolution wihtout
[17:47] You: moral, ethical, social, and political control
[17:47] Michele Mrigesh is Offline
[17:48] You: Technology ahead of social, mental, instituional abilities to control them scare people
[17:48] You: Just a few more things before we close -- Nuclear technology bombs
[17:49] You: The notion that the way to control is by stopping threats is unrealastic
[17:49] You: For some reason, our species lieks to experiment
[17:49] You: And the level of technical capacity is way beyond - on a large scale - what people think
[17:50] You: There's kind of a mentality where if you have a toy, you play
[17:50] You: And the most fundamental challenge is when you say
[17:50] You: We are the government
[17:50] You: that controls, regulates and adapts these technologies
[17:51] You: WHO IS WE?
[17:51] You: Becuase who we is isn't obvious
[17:51] Michele Mrigesh is Online
[17:51] You: Who are the actors?
[17:51] You: It's literally impossible to control what's happened in society
[17:52] You: Are they governemnts?
[17:52] You: what are the institutions?
[17:52] You: How do we control these?
[17:52] You: How do people organize?
[17:52] You: Now we have extrordinary mistrusts
[17:52] You: and a great incapacity of government to control trends
[17:53] You: And th egovernment is accelarting trends.
[17:53] You: And there's still a reliance on party politics
[17:53] You: on bureaucrats
[17:53] You: moey
[17:53] You: and politicians who want re-election
[17:53] You: Who will control this Information Technology revolution?
[17:53] You: Business?
[17:54] You: Corporate business is showing
[17:54] You: responsbility, but they don't have the role to control these processes?
[17:54] Morrhys Graysmark is Online
[17:54] You: And you don't want business to control this
[17:55] You: Well, grass roots' organizations can influence some change
[17:55] You: but independent from busienss or government
[17:55] You: There are very few grass roots organziations, however, that can organize society
[17:56] You: and some are dependent on churches
[17:56] You: but a spiritual role can't organize society.
[17:56] You: So, Civil Society is weak
[17:56] You: And government can't control
[17:56] You: and it isn't businesses role to control
[17:57] You: So, going back to governemnt
[17:57] You: Which kind of government do we want?
[17:57] You: And how can that be generated?
[17:57] You: That's where the equation is still unsolved
[17:57] You: How to reconstruct solutions ?
[17:57] You: - so that people can establish paths to technological change?
[17:58] You: If we define where the problem is, we can design solutions
[17:58] You: And the problem lies in the collapse of the public sphere
[17:58] You: Political institutions are lagging way behind
[17:58] You: -technologies
[17:58] You: -markets
[17:59] You: There are sophisticated individuals
[17:59] You: But they all don't make a society.
[17:59] You: And the inability to tackle these challenges leads to others
[17:59] You: where the collectivization of individuals is offset by me first
[18:00] You: We still need some backup system of family, community
[18:00] You: but this is old
[18:00] You: And the last 20 years have changed a lot
[18:00] You: We're on teh threshold a pure collection of individuals
[18:00] You: which will decrease the capacity of society.
[18:01] You: So that's enough for this evening.
[18:01] You: Questions? Observations?
[18:01] You: i'll post the transcript here - http://socinfotech.pbwiki.com/April-16-2008-Soc-and-Info-Tech-class-transcript
[18:01] Jayne Urqhart: thank you so much, Aphilo - fascinating as usual
[18:02] You: Thanks, Jayne!
[18:02] You: And thanks for coming!
[18:02] Claryssa Schmidt: thanks Aphilo
[18:02] You: Next week - the digital divide
[18:02] Rain Ninetails: :)
[18:02] Jayne Urqhart: you mentioned that there may be plans for extending the schedule?
[18:02] You: Thanks Claryssa, Rain
[18:02] You: Boston . . .
[18:02] 01 Hifeng: interesting, thanks :)
[18:02] You: I'm still deliberating about that Jayne . . .
[18:02] You: Thanks 01 Hifeng!
[18:03] Luna Bliss is Offline
[18:03] Boston Hutchinson: I see two problems in solving the "crisis" you have identified: 1. can we identify specific risks soon enough? 2. Can we do anything about them?
[18:03] You: On the societal level, they are so many and involved, Boston,
[18:04] You: that it makes solving them problematic indeed
[18:04] Boston Hutchinson: Well, we failed to identify the mortgage crisis.
[18:04] Boston Hutchinson: We failed to fix global warming.
[18:04] You: Even with the ability of IT to offer ways of analyzing and desinging solutions, the societal processes in the aggregate, especially concerning governance
[18:04] You: aren't obvious,
[18:04] Boston Hutchinson: Two different kinds of failures.
[18:04] You: so I'm skeptical, Boston
[18:05] Alexicon Kurka is Offline
[18:05] You: I have to get out of the cafe where i am
[18:05] Boston Hutchinson: But maybe we could solve other problems if the vested interests are not so strong.
[18:05] You: Yes, little bits at a time
[18:06] You: so to speak :)
[18:06] Claryssa Schmidt is Offline
[18:06] Boston Hutchinson: The hypothetical "gray goo" problem is in nobody's interest to tolerate, for example, unlike global warming.
[18:07] You: problematic
[18:07] You: and national sovereingty issues vs the U.N. history make global governacne
[18:08] Boston Hutchinson: On the other hand, nobody wants gray goo or nuclear war.
[18:08] Boston Hutchinson: A lot of people (oil companies) don't want to fix global warming.
[18:09] You: True, and corporations are more profitable in peace
[18:10] Boston Hutchinson: So maybe there is a will to prevent these things, the extinction problems, as opposed to the lesser disasters.
[18:10] You: So a strong environmental movement will continue - Al Gores' campaign
[18:10] You: for example - the societal costs of global warming are ginormous
[18:11] Morrhys Graysmark is Offline
[18:11] You: Let's hope so . . .
[18:11] You: enormous . . . so I have to go . . . See you soon!
[18:12] Boston Hutchinson: Thanks for class.
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